Simply bad game design

[Aedwynn]

I've got 170+ hours in Hades 1, can't say i'm a pro rather your average player.
Honestly, I don't like Hades 2 - for many reasons.
1) Weapons are weak. It's obvious - the time you spend on late game enemies is insane. Challenges like Nemesis is a good measure - you can compete pretty well in act 1, but in any later act you can see a clear difference - you take dozens of hits to take down one opponent while your adversary oneshot kills anyone. Before you jump to thread with "tips" like "you need a proper build for a weapon/porper gifts" - I know that. The issue is how often you can achieve this. In 30+ hours game time I saw like 2 runs with a decent build that allowed me to get past act3 boss. (But no Kronos kill). In 99% other cases it's a broken build that you have 0 options to fix. Bad gift choices, bad hammer choices. 50% of time you get no choices to amp your weapon damage. Like at all. You are stuck collecting basic resources that give no progress. Now add a possible game+ challenges (like Hell modifiers in H1) and even those 1% builds look weak if they barely manage the basic game.
2) Resources management is just bad. In 30 hours of gameplay, the first time I got obsidian or flotsam wood is like an hour ago. Despite me regularly visiting locations they drop in. That's how bad it is. Why would I ever pick a tablet or fishing rod if they do not provide any meaningful resource? Why do I need to choose a tool in first place, If for all I know, I may never, ever meet a resource I need in any given run despite me having proper tool equipped?
3) What's the point of familiars? They are mostly useless and the best use for them is as alternative resource gathering tool which is, unfortunately, the lame tablet/ fishing rod?
4) Why so much AOE /armor on enemies? Why character is so unresponsive and is often stuck in animations?
5) Moon spells are plain bad - they are either have no meaningful benefit (even upgraded) or require too much effort to be usable, which barely compensates alternative gifts you can possibly get
6) Enemy spawning is broken, a few times I ran in a situation where last enemies just won't spawn and you are either softlocked or forced to skip rewards.
7) Gifts are mostly bad, don't interact with each other, or give player very situational benefits. Like Hestia's run that "reflects" projectiles? It doesn't work on most bosses which makes it a meme build for Eris and disadvantage in every other battle.
Hera's chains? they are good vs crowd if you can put them on said crowd. Which requires AoE. Wich is already good vs crowd. The point? List goes on...

[GeminiEclipse]

I'm 33 hours in and have cleared fear 16 on both paths. You're doing something wrong.

[werwolfgaming]

ill just comment on ur first point if u played hades 1 in EA all weapons felt just as bad reason were not used to them hades 1 has had years to get better and balanced if u look at the first couple builds off hades 1 ud realize weapons were very weak or outright op for that game aswell not to mention hades 2s weapons arent weak once u get to know how to use them and upgrading ur cards and knowing what boons work the best for each weapon as said we have had years to figure that out for hades 1 making the most optimal build in hades 1 well known hades 2 is still being explored were still trying to find what works best

its not a fair arguement to make yes they could off looked at hades 1 weapons and seen how they were balanced but even then thats not a good idea the weapons in hades 2 is completely diffrent so the balancing changes needed for them would have to be diffrent aswell this is why its early access to give the devs an idea on what to buff what to nerf and what to maybe change

2. most tools will have atleast 1 use each run the only way i can think this to be false would be surface as it only has 2 stages and as such way less encounters this will likely again be better with updates for example fishing rod and tablet u should not really have to use u should upgrade ur pets to make them able to use thair abilities more frog acts like a tablet with a limited uses that can be increased and the cat works like a fishing rod

3. to note again EA as such there will be more companions in the future theres also gonna be more uses for fishes and other stuff theres gonna be more resources

4. idk what u mean by this

5. no moon spells are actually the most op things u can have for example the hex to bring a dead enemy back can do ridicoulous amount off damage and rn has a bug with it that works on 1 off the end game arcana cards, the beam does ridicoulous damage but comes at the cost off being slow and u stand still untill uve upgraded it each moon one has a good benefit to them

6.report it as a bug click f10 in game to report a bug

7. again EA stuff will change rn gifting is for keepsakes and to get the story that so far exists

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by werwolfgaming:

ill just comment on ur first point if u played hades 1 in EA all weapons felt just as bad reason were not used to them hades 1 has had years to get better and balanced if u look at the first couple builds off hades 1 ud realize weapons were very weak or outright op for that game aswell not to mention hades 2s weapons arent weak once u get to know how to use them and upgrading ur cards and knowing what boons work the best for each weapon as said we have had years to figure that out for hades 1 making the most optimal build in hades 1 well known hades 2 is still being explored were still trying to find what works best

I do remember H1 EA, but that doesn't justify current state by any means. It was flawed back in H1, it is flawed now. That's why I'm pointing this out instead of ignoring the problem.
The thing is, I pretty much already know what works with what weapons. The problem is - I don't get what works. Instead I get what doesn't. Like no M2 upgrades for staff from hammers. No M2 Poseidon/Hesita either. Like, I've already cleared 10+ rooms and I got no proper hammer upgrade, no gifts for build. Nothing. Some lame improvements here and there that are better than nothing, but no good stuff. It immediately shows. In H1 even with bad build you could get to last boss, good builds were needed for challenges, but like 95% you can always get to final boss at least. Here, 50% of time you won't get past 2nd boss. Because you lack resources, you lack progression. Cheers for person who cleared game in 30 hours, but in my case game didn't even drop resources it should. I'm serious, more than once I saw no resources through entire act. It all snowballs to very bad progression. Because you heavily, unjustly depend on future unlocks that game doesn't give you.

[GeminiEclipse]

The game gives the ability to reroll rooms and boons.

[werwolfgaming]

Originally posted by Aedwynn:

Originally posted by werwolfgaming:

ill just comment on ur first point if u played hades 1 in EA all weapons felt just as bad reason were not used to them hades 1 has had years to get better and balanced if u look at the first couple builds off hades 1 ud realize weapons were very weak or outright op for that game aswell not to mention hades 2s weapons arent weak once u get to know how to use them and upgrading ur cards and knowing what boons work the best for each weapon as said we have had years to figure that out for hades 1 making the most optimal build in hades 1 well known hades 2 is still being explored were still trying to find what works best

I do remember H1 EA, but that doesn't justify current state by any means. It was flawed back in H1, it is flawed now. That's why I'm pointing this out instead of ignoring the problem.
The thing is, I pretty much already know what works with what weapons. The problem is - I don't get what works. Instead I get what doesn't. Like no M2 upgrades for staff from hammers. No M2 Poseidon/Hesita either. Like, I've already cleared 10+ rooms and I got no proper hammer upgrade, no gifts for build. Nothing. Some lame improvements here and there that are better than nothing, but no good stuff. It immediately shows. In H1 even with bad build you could get to last boss, good builds were needed for challenges, but like 95% you can always get to final boss at least. Here, 50% of time you won't get past 2nd boss. Because you lack resources, you lack progression. Cheers for person who cleared game in 30 hours, but in my case game didn't even drop resources it should. I'm serious, more than once I saw no resources through entire act. It all snowballs to very bad progression. Because you heavily, unjustly depend on future unlocks that game doesn't give you.

If u cant get past the second boss then im sorry to tell u ur doing something wrong even on bad runs i have basically no issue getting past the second boss u can get past that boss using just hephestus burst damage or zeus lightning damage

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by GeminiEclipse:

The game gives the ability to reroll rooms and boons.

I know that. That's only part of the problem. You get enough gifts, it's just almost all of them are bad.
Again, in H1 you can get to last boss without any rerolls and basically almost any build you have. Not in H2.

[UNBREAKABLE]

Originally posted by Aedwynn:

Originally posted by GeminiEclipse:

The game gives the ability to reroll rooms and boons.

I know that. That's only part of the problem. You get enough gifts, it's just almost all of them are bad.
Again, in H1 you can get to last boss without any rerolls and basically almost any build you have. Not in H2.

Mostly because you could just spam dash and win no matter what build you have. Glad that's gone now.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by werwolfgaming:

If u cant get past the second boss then im sorry to tell u ur doing something wrong even on bad runs i have basically no issue getting past the second boss u can get past that boss using just hephestus burst damage or zeus lightning damage

Simply means your "bad" are still better than mine. Yeah, you can smash 2nd boss with those, but you need to get them in first place. You are talking as if every run is a guaranteed Hef boon or Zeus boon that provides specifically those gifts. 2nd boss is easy if you can deal damage. The issue is, half of time you just can't.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

OP says game has bad game design because OP personally only beat act 3 boss twice in 30 hours.

I can't read any further that that. How good could this feedback be, if that's the argument being made here.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

OP says game has bad game design because OP personally only beat act 3 boss twice in 30 hours.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

I can't read

Well, you said it yourself.

[TommyEV]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

OP says game has bad game design because OP personally only beat act 3 boss twice in 30 hours.

I can't read any further that that. How good could this feedback be, if that's the argument being made here.

lol

[GunBladeCorps]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

OP says game has bad game design because OP personally only beat act 3 boss twice in 30 hours.

I can't read any further that that. How good could this feedback be, if that's the argument being made here.

I feel this. Most people complaining are just those who haven't adapted to the new mechanics and can't Zues shield their way through a run. As if the introduction of a new challenge is just bad.

[Aedwynn]

Originally posted by GunBladeCorps:

I feel this. Most people complaining are just those who haven't adapted to the new mechanics and can't Zues shield their way through a run. As if the introduction of a new challenge is just bad.

Never did Zeus shield in H1. What's your next excuse?

[Fire walk with me]

Skill issue.

[FreakEr]

I'm sorry OP but you are demonstrably incorrect on almost every point that you made. I'm not trying to be snarky or rude here but if you watch any of the major Hades streamers/Youtubers do any random builds, even on higher Fear levels (the Heat equivalent from H1) you will quickly see how wrong you are. You may not like a lot of things about the game and that's totally valid but you're posing really flawed and incorrect statements as fact and it's clear that the main reason you feel this way is because you don't understand a lot about how the game works. And that's OK! Part of the fun of these games is learning what works and what doesn't, and more importantly what works for YOU and your playstyle.

All of this is besides the fact that the game is nearly a year out from 1.0 and still has a long way to go with additional content, mechanics, balance, polish etc. It's an exceptional Early Access title as is and I'm having an absolute blast streaking wins and pushing my weapon aspect levels and Fear levels. But it's different than Hades 1 and requires you to think differently when building your character. In its current state it's very easy to end up with a bad build by biome #3 due to poor boon/hammer selection and not realize it because you were following instincts instilled into you by Hades 1. If the things you are saying were true people wouldn't have been getting clears on day 1 of EA launching and streaking wins since, even without a ton of unlocks and death defiances. It's just a matter of learning the game and adapting to the new mechanics.