Hades II

Hades II

Doc May 10, 2024 @ 6:52am
New chaos does not make sense
TLDR : Chaos does not understand Chaos, more than the visual aspects

Referring to a dialogue between Melinoe and Chaos where he doesn't understand why there would be such disparity between siblings" He/she/it/whatever remembers of Zagreus fondly but cannot grasp why Melinoe would be so different..... I mean Chaos itself does not understand Chaos? That makes no sense whatsoever.

What it makes me think of is wellllll.... Chaos doesnt understand that he feels attracted to Zagreus?? Because of the whole non-gender queer whatever.... let's be honest, Chaos does not look gender neutral, he/she/it/whatever looks homosexual. Which there is nothing wrong with it, in a real life context (you do you, no one cares).

I mean this is mythology.... I understand the baby rebirth thingy, but why wear makeup and obvious lip service to the anime fans?

This goes exactly with the woke criticism.... they cannot create good characters so they have to flex everything to their own view point, which is always around sexuality (gender is closely tied to sexuality, like it or not).

I'm trying to like the redesign, but it just doesnt fit logically, but hey.... must be a bigot xD

Please leave sexuality out of games, story telling is ALWAYS better that way.

Have a nice day, you amazing people!
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Showing 1-15 of 27 comments
rhabdophobia May 10, 2024 @ 7:00am 
3
Chaos, named Chaos, is hard to understand and confusing. More at 11.
Jeris May 10, 2024 @ 7:02am 
Why do things have to be logical? Its a game where you fight monsters, gods, etc. There is nothing logical about it.

A story based loosely on myths and we out here trying to make it fit our views, otherwise its automatically trash.
Calamity Heart May 10, 2024 @ 7:10am 
Originally posted by Doc:
TLDR : Chaos does not understand Chaos, more than the visual aspects

Referring to a dialogue between Melinoe and Chaos where he doesn't understand why there would be such disparity between siblings" He/she/it/whatever remembers of Zagreus fondly but cannot grasp why Melinoe would be so different..... I mean Chaos itself does not understand Chaos? That makes no sense whatsoever.

What it makes me think of is wellllll.... Chaos doesnt understand that he feels attracted to Zagreus?? Because of the whole non-gender queer whatever.... let's be honest, Chaos does not look gender neutral, he/she/it/whatever looks homosexual. Which there is nothing wrong with it, in a real life context (you do you, no one cares).

I think you're just misinterpreting Chaos's character really hard here, and jumping to conclusions that you just weren't meant to.

Chaos doesn't understand the life that they've created because life has evolved to be so unlike Chaos because of the interpersonal connections that people and gods have made with each other, that Chaos didn't bother to make with their creations themself.

Chaos was a foil to Zagreus in the past game, because Zagreus is wholly defined by these interpersonal familial connections with everything and everyone around him, while Chaos was wholly defined by the lack of such. This might be part of the reason why Chaos sees Melinoe differently than they saw Zagreus, because Melinoe doesn't have those connections in quite the same way that Zag did. Melinoe isn't driven by the same things that Zag is. She's not the same person that he is, despite them both spawning from the same place.

Chaos doesn't understand people, and probably never properly will. They're not sexually attracted to Zagreus any more than you would be sexually attracted to an ant in the pet colony you made, if it suddenly broke out into your room and started speaking to you in words you kind of understand.
Last edited by Calamity Heart; May 10, 2024 @ 7:40am
Cubit May 10, 2024 @ 7:13am 
You've completely missed the mark. look at Hades 1 Chaos, then look at Hades 2 Chaos, then look at Hades 1 Megaera. Chaos and Meg have clearly fused, though the mechanism for this is not clear to me. Personally I find it more fun if it's mysterious.

Given that Meg-Chaos is holding the severed head of Chaos from Hades 1, I think Meg slew Chaos for some reason and then Chaos reincarnated inside of her and overwrote her sense of self. Perhaps they fought because Chaos sided with Chronos, but this whole second paragraph is speculation but who knows.
Specific Beef May 10, 2024 @ 7:19am 
There's so much wrong with this post, but...

Originally posted by Doc:
Chaos does not look gender neutral

... is spectacular.

How does one "look gender-neutral"?
Do people not know what androgyny is
Doc May 10, 2024 @ 10:47am 
Originally posted by Jeris:
Why do things have to be logical? Its a game where you fight monsters, gods, etc. There is nothing logical about it.

A story based loosely on myths and we out here trying to make it fit our views, otherwise its automatically trash.

Things need to make sense because.... you know greek mythology is a thing and has an aesthetic associated to it?
UNBREAKABLE May 10, 2024 @ 10:56am 
Chaos is not good a relationships, doesn't know/care what is good for his creations at all and remains impartial. Should be pretty clear after you learn a certain thing they did for Chronos.
Last edited by UNBREAKABLE; May 10, 2024 @ 11:03am
Doc May 10, 2024 @ 10:58am 
Originally posted by Calamity Heart:
Originally posted by Doc:
TLDR : Chaos does not understand Chaos, more than the visual aspects

Referring to a dialogue between Melinoe and Chaos where he doesn't understand why there would be such disparity between siblings" He/she/it/whatever remembers of Zagreus fondly but cannot grasp why Melinoe would be so different..... I mean Chaos itself does not understand Chaos? That makes no sense whatsoever.

What it makes me think of is wellllll.... Chaos doesnt understand that he feels attracted to Zagreus?? Because of the whole non-gender queer whatever.... let's be honest, Chaos does not look gender neutral, he/she/it/whatever looks homosexual. Which there is nothing wrong with it, in a real life context (you do you, no one cares).

I think you're just misinterpreting Chaos's character really hard here, and jumping to conclusions that you just weren't meant to.

Chaos doesn't understand the life that they've created because life has evolved to be so unlike Chaos because of the interpersonal connections that people and gods have made with each other, that Chaos didn't bother to make with their creations themself.

Chaos was a foil to Zagreus in the past game, because Zagreus is wholly defined by these interpersonal familial connections with everything and everyone around him, while Chaos was wholly defined by the lack of such. This might be part of the reason why Chaos sees Melinoe differently than they saw Zagreus, because Melinoe doesn't have those connections in quite the same way that Zag did. Melinoe isn't driven by the same things that Zag is. She's not the same person that he is, despite them both spawning from the same place.

Chaos doesn't understand people, and probably never properly will. They're not sexually attracted to Zagreus any more than you would be sexually attracted to an ant in the pet colony you made, if it suddenly broke out into your room and started speaking to you in words you kind of understand.

I'm saying that Chaos should absolutely understand that there are clear differences between siblings and shouldnt be SURPRISED about this. If Chaos is omnipotent and omnipresent, there should be no surprise on Melinoe's existence or potential. Why is he particuliarly interested in Zagreus? Chaos should not take any sort of liking to anything or anyone as it is.... well chaos! Chaos is the kind of character that would help Zagreus only to see him fall further to a giant crash, the character that will disrupt any convention and mix up routines.

When I see hesitancy from a character that should have none and they clearly changed the character to fit a certain mold, it's hard to see things as otherwise.
Last edited by Doc; May 10, 2024 @ 10:59am
Doc May 10, 2024 @ 11:08am 
2
Originally posted by Scylla & The Sirens:
Chaos, named Chaos, is hard to understand and confusing. More at 11.

Bad writing is bad writing, makes bad content. Simple!

With a comment like that, you could've said first and it would've been the same
ryanrem May 10, 2024 @ 11:30am 
So, there are some core concepts that you might be misunderstanding about Greek Gods.

None of the Titans/Gods are omnipotent/present or anything like that. They are representations of the forces and are frequently shown to be wrong or to be fooled. For example, Here is a great quote from Hades 1.

"You have traveled recently beyond my senses, Son of Hades. I persist here only in the fathomless depths. I know what lies out there, having created it. But I know nothing of what it is like, right now. Do not tell me. I prefer to think of all the possibilities."
-https://hades.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos/Quotes

While he knows what is in the world, he created the world, but he does not know what it is like. Perfect example, imagine an architect/builder and they themsleves build a house. They than sell the house to a family. After a few years, does the builder know what furniture is there? What about any renovations that they may have made, maybe they knew the family but did they know they bought a dog since than? Chaos, is that builder.
Morton Koopa Jr. May 10, 2024 @ 11:42am 
How does someone go through the effort of writing this essay on chaos while revealing they know pretty much nothing about chaos?

Chaos looks homosexual? Wth is OP smoking.
Calamity Heart May 10, 2024 @ 11:58am 
Originally posted by Doc:

I'm saying that Chaos should absolutely understand that there are clear differences between siblings and shouldnt be SURPRISED about this.

Why? Chaos doesn't have any siblings. Chaos barely understands what it means to be a parent. Chaos is a creator, not a father. They didn't raise or care for the life and existence they formed on a whim, they just made it and then watched it grow. Life is a science experiment, and Chaos isn't much more than the puzzled scientist.

Originally posted by Doc:
If Chaos is omnipotent and omnipresent, there should be no surprise on Melinoe's existence or potential.

Chaos isn't the One True God who has full knowledge of all the workings of everything that ever was, is, or will be. They're an outside observer to an experiment that has grown largely out of their control, in a way they can't properly fathom but are nonetheless curious about the results of. Again, I think you're just really misinterpreting what Chaos is all about.

Chaos knows some things, but they don't necessarily know and understand all that there is to know and understand about Melinoe just at a glance, same as Zagreus before her, though Chaos grew to enjoy Zag's presence and willingness to make himself part of Chaos's whims. What Chaos understands is that she's different from her brother and is fascinated as to why.

Originally posted by Doc:
Why is he particuliarly interested in Zagreus? Chaos should not take any sort of liking to anything or anyone as it is.... well chaos! Chaos is the kind of character that would help Zagreus only to see him fall further to a giant crash, the character that will disrupt any convention and mix up routines.

?????

Out of curiosity, how much have you actually played of the first game? Or cared about its story/characters? This misunderstanding of Chaos' character would make more sense if you hadn't played much of it. Because Chaos is not at all that kind of character. Chaos doesn't "mix things up" for the hell of it and want to see people fall and crash; they're largely passive and act out of curiosity and a desire to both amuse themselves in a non-malevolent way and understand what they're seeing when they observe the world they made.



Originally posted by Doc:
When I see hesitancy from a character that should have none and they clearly changed the character to fit a certain mold, it's hard to see things as otherwise.

Chaos hasn't really changed much at all except in their portrait. They're still esoteric and socially inept and difficult for the main character to get much of a grasp on at first, just like Chaos has difficulty getting a grasp on everything else. It really just sounds like you're imagining both the character and the mold that you think it's being changed to fit. I can't really argue with your imagination. All I can really suggest is that you play Hades 1 again, and pay better attention to the kind of character that Chaos actually is.
Aura1_sponge May 17, 2024 @ 12:21pm 
Hi! I'm going to try to be as respectful as possible in this response, but I think you're severely misunderstanding some key things. I won't go into your point about chaos not understanding chaos--I'm not far enough into the game to have an opinion on that yet

To your point about them including minority characters and sexuality: Regardless of your opinion on big franchises and upcoming games and movies including minorities and hot-button issues, this is not a case of a company trying to use peoples identities to earn brownie points. Hades 1 had nonbinary characters, queer relationships, and minority races represented in it already. Even if you want to argue that this isn't simply a representation of what the developers wanted to see in the game, these are people and themes included for the enjoyment of a large part of the target demographic. Hades 1 was targeted towards a demographic that includes a lot of the types of people represented in the game. People tend to like when they can relate to a character in race, personality, and other types of traits. When you don't see a specific trait represented in a lot of things, it's refreshing to play a game or watch a movie where this is represented. Hades 1 (sorry I'm mostly using the first game here, I just know that one way better) not only had minority races and genders represented, but also had people of all different sorts of body types (see Sisyphus, who was chosen to be made fat and stocky despite most representations of him being slender and jacked). It's not just the easily recognizable minority inclusions that they used--they were thorough and intentional about it.

RPGs always involve elements of people's lives that aren't just about battles and such. This is what makes them compelling--the more you can get into the characters, the more you're going to be invested in what happens to them. Romance is a big part of many peoples' lives, and lots of people really enjoy it in RPGs. Putting queer sexualities in Hades is nothing more than having romance arcs that people who are queer can relate to. Like it or not, there are both straight and queer relationships in both games, which at the very least is a good marketing decision when your audience is made of both queer and non-queer players.

To your point about diversity substituting for good story--honestly I think this is just a matter of personal opinion if you don't like the stories and characters. I think they're pretty great, but I'm not going to argue with what you hold as your opinion. I just think it's kind of a moot point to say that any perceived lack in writing quality has to do with the diversity included in this. Yes I agree that some cash-grab movies and games use token characters to try and make a quick but, but as I've already explained, none of these characters in the game are token characters, but rather a reflection of the actual diversity that exists in the real world and in the game's real playerbase. Once again, I understand why people may not like the stories, but the writers wanted to write in some queer stories and characters, and you can't really do that without, well, having queer people in your game.

As for Chaos, they are referred to in the game by either they or them. This if fortunately a lot easier to type than "he/she/it", and is pretty much the standard (though not the only) way to refer to people who don't identify within the gender binary. If you don't think they look genderless, I don't know what to tell you. Again, you're allowed to not like a design, but I'm going to assume that I've probably hung out with a few more nonbinary people in my day than you have, and I think both designs do pretty well at this. "Homosexuals" often have a style that is androgynous for many reasons I don't have time to go into here, but if that confuses you, you're free to look up the history of queer fashion. You can assume that Chaos's design was probably made more for other kinds of people than it was for you, and I think there's a decent consensus that both designs fit the "genderless" aesthetic fairly well.

Hope that clears things up
COOLSKELETON95 May 17, 2024 @ 12:39pm 
What are you talking about? Chaos doesn't "have trouble understanding" how Zagreus and Melinoe are different from each other, they just think it's interesting. They're not talking about being attracted to Zagreus, they're talking about the two sibling's personalities. Melinoe is much more reserved and dutiful than Zagreus, who was outgoing and rebellious. Chaos is pointing out that Melinoe's has a much different attitude than Zagreus and they think that's neat. You're the one who's obsessing over sexuality.
Chaos is a primordial being that predates life as we know it, there's no reason they should have a gender. They don't have a gender in Greek myth either.
As for "leaving sexuality out of the story", it's a game about Greek Mythology, dude. Should they leave religion out of the story too?

Actually. why would game stories be better without sexuality, anyway? Nobody should ever kiss? Spouses should not be depicted on-screen? Should we remove the idea of "parents" from video games too? Perhaps we should remove all romance from every single video game to avoid offending your delicate sensibilities?
Last edited by COOLSKELETON95; May 17, 2024 @ 12:43pm
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Date Posted: May 10, 2024 @ 6:52am
Posts: 27