Underbarrel Shotguns

[smgunsftw]

Is there any chance of underbarrel shotguns being added in the future? They would have many useful functions.

• Underbarrel + Buckshot Rounds - For CQB, Emergency Secondary Weapon, Breaching Doors
  
• Underbarrel + Breaching Rounds - For Breaching Doors
  
• Underbarrel + Beanbag Rounds - For a less-lethal option combined with the lethal option of the rifle

Adding them would create a unique gameplay choice and help bridge the gap between going full lethal and full non-lethal. It would allow players to better deal with stunned suspects that refuse to comply, without having to put themselves at risk by switching to another non-lethal weapon like a beanbag shotgun or taser.

Some underbarrel shotguns to add are the MasterKey, UBS-12, and M26 MASS.

If underbarrel grenade launchers are added in the future, maybe potentially even a 40mm Beanbag Round.

I'm not sure how realistic adding these attachments would be, but if they're available for use, I don't see why they couldn't be added as well. Yes, they are cumbersome IRL and restrict the movement and mobility of the primary weapon. The game should reflect that by increasing the ADS delay and decreasing movement speed to account for it.

[Kigurumi (((魔神)))]

those aren't needed.

[ureaditwrong]

This is a great idea. It's like the AUG in that, it's not practically realistic for the SWAT to have, but theoretically realistic, in that an underbarrel shotgun would benefit a unit like SWAT the most.

The game needs weapons and features that set it apart from the old SWAT games.

[Major Fret]

As much as I'd like more options, my concern is how do you balance this?

This would essentially make the shotgun a free item, and in LTL and lethal rolls, that's very powerful. 12 Gauge shotguns in game are already really potent, and having a less lethal option on tap makes other tools like the TASER and pepper spray much less appealing.

SWAT AI don't suffer from the same sort of aiming penalties the player does (evident by how easily they shoot something like the SA-58). This would effectively allow you to give them breaching shotguns for free and whilst I don't think breaching shotguns are all that helpful (because in VOID's infinite stupidity they decided to remove the two game modes where speed really matters), it does open up a big chunk of an operator's inventory.

You're also now further pushing the assault rifle meta, which is the last thing RoN needs to do.

[smgunsftw]

Originally posted by Major Fret:

As much as I'd like more options, my concern is how do you balance this?

There will be a noticeable ADS speed penalty for any weapons that have an underbarrel shotgun or launcher. Reloads can also be made slower on the primary weapon due to the clunkier setup and weight of the underbarrel.

Originally posted by Major Fret:

This would essentially make the shotgun a free item, and in LTL and lethal rolls, that's very powerful. 12 Gauge shotguns in game are already really potent, and having a less lethal option on tap makes other tools like the TASER and pepper spray much less appealing.

SWAT AI don't suffer from the same sort of aiming penalties the player does (evident by how easily they shoot something like the SA-58). This would effectively allow you to give them breaching shotguns for free and whilst I don't think breaching shotguns are all that helpful (because in VOID's infinite stupidity they decided to remove the two game modes where speed really matters), it does open up a big chunk of an operator's inventory.

Underbarrel shotguns would have decreased accuracy, decreased fire rate, decreased bullet velocity, and decreased reload speeds compared to their standalone counterparts (Since the barrel is shorter and the underbarrel is less ergonomic).

I'm not too sure on how this would be balanced in the context of AI teammates, but perhaps a nerf to their overall shooting accuracy when using their primary weapon. But like you said, breaching shotguns aren't that effective to begin with, so I don't think this becoming a game-changer for most scenarios.

Originally posted by Major Fret:

You're also now further pushing the assault rifle meta, which is the last thing RoN needs to do.

Not necessarily, some SMGs can also mount underbarrels. The ISTEC ISL-200 was designed to be mounted to SMGs like the MP5 and MP7 and was used by British Special Forces. I've even seen a MP5 with M203 attached and a Kriss Vector with a M203 attached. I'm not going to comment on how likely a SWAT team would run with such a setup, but it's definitely possible. Plus, the ADS penalty would be less noticeable on the SMGs compared to the ARs, so there's an advantage there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHtcq3rC7OI

[Major Fret]

Originally posted by smgunsftw:

There will be a noticeable ADS speed penalty for any weapons that have an underbarrel shotgun or launcher. Reloads can also be made slower on the primary weapon due to the clunkier setup and weight of the underbarrel.

So now I've got two weapons that fulfil neither roll well? Why would I do this?

Originally posted by smgunsftw:

Underbarrel shotguns would have decreased accuracy, decreased fire rate, decreased bullet velocity, and decreased reload speeds compared to their standalone counterparts (Since the barrel is shorter and the underbarrel is less ergonomic).

I'm not too sure on how this would be balanced in the context of AI teammates, but perhaps a nerf to their overall shooting accuracy when using their primary weapon. But like you said, breaching shotguns aren't that effective to begin with, so I don't think this becoming a game-changer for most scenarios.

Decreased accuracy is ambiguous because if that means more spread that's not really a bad thing tbh. Fire rate is of little concern when it comes to lethal as one hit is likely to stun a suspect if not outright end them. Bullet velocity is not yet simulated in RoN.

And sure, breaching shotguns aren't super useful in the current game, but RoN has always been about limiting how many tools one person can carry.

There's also a risk that the attachment becomes so useless it's not worth using. I'm honestly starting to lean towards it'll be just that more than it will be OP. You'll have less ammo overall (considering you have to give up one slot of pouches per weapon) and you'll have two sucky versions of weapons you could equip otherwise.

Originally posted by smgunsftw:

Not necessarily, some SMGs can also mount underbarrels. The ISTEC ISL-200 was designed to be mounted to SMGs like the MP5 and MP7 and was used by British Special Forces. I've even seen a MP5 with M203 attached and a Kriss Vector with a M203 attached. I'm not going to comment on how likely a SWAT team would run with such a setup, but it's definitely possible. Plus, the ADS penalty would be less noticeable on the SMGs compared to the ARs, so there's an advantage there.

You might be able to mount a Masterkey on some subguns, but it's going to be incredibly awkward and for some it's going to involve sticking your hand in front of the SMG's muzzle (MP7 comes to mind). I also doubt VOID are going to mess with ADS between the two weapon categories because they've yet to do that.

Also if we're going on the realism thing: I've only ever heard of one special ops unit (Delta Force) using underbarrel attached shotguns and that was back during Mogadishu (aka Black Hawk Down) over 30 years ago. Every time I've heard people talk about the M26 they say it sucks. I get a feeling there are some very good reasons no one attaches shotguns to their rifle anymore.