JHP vs AP

[Webley]

Anybody notice any real difference ingame between the two rounds. Or is just for RP.

[Graywolf364]

^JHP stands for a jacketed hollow points. All jacketed hollow points are hollow points but not all hollow points are jacketed. Most rounds intended for semi-auto firearms will be jacketed or use a process that's very close to it (like on Speer Gold Dots). Whereas unjacketed hollow points are more commonly found on 22 rimfire and rounds intended for revolvers.

In the US, outside of states like New Jersey that ban them or military applications, the vast majority of defense and duty focused ammunition for semi autos will be some sort of hollow point. As are a lot of hunting rifle rounds.

Since the Adam update, I primarily use JHP for rifle and pistol. During my initial experiments, five shot strings were pretty good at dropping any suspect regardless of ammo type. If that doesn't work I keep on shooting until they go down, which usually isn't too long because they're stunned enough to land a headshot. Before the update I had AP/FMJ for rifles and JHP for pistols. Mostly because I figured they were going to extravagate the hard armor and barrier penetration performance of JHP in feature updates. I need to do more experiments with the updates AP/FMJ to get a better idea of barrier penetration abilities and the frag risk. Since they've made a big deal about the new frag and ricochet system. Which is undoubtedly cool but probably has it's probability dialed up so players will notice it.

[Andy Mil]

They peformace the same for now I suppoose
just stick to watever u like also I feel like most noticeable diff is ur pistol. I havent test HP stuff yet but this version I try all my pistol doing 3 shot to drop except the .357 my boy. Still BANG and they drop but sadly there remove the AHHHHHHHHHH after

[Graywolf364]

The change log does say that there is a difference now. I'm just saying a fast burst to the upper thoracic it's usually pretty good at dropping anything regardless of ammo type. So I don't see it as making that big of a terminal ballistics sacrifice when choosing between the two.

I'm more interested in barrier penetration. It seems like most of the JHP rifle rounds won't consistently penetrating through doors and light cover. So it should be some fun experimentation to see if AP can provide the necessary penetration without smoking a hostage on the complete opposite side of the map.

[Andy Mil]

Yea
I dont know how this game pen stuff work tho but I suppose AP if u want pen. Other time my shotty pen wooden prop other time it not pen door or same wooden prop like 2 out of 8 shot will pen. It probably random pen they put in
tho I dont wanna trust random luck gamble stuff like this instead my own skill.

[The airborne Hedgehog]

I think is perfectly normal for a special intervention police team (name it anyway you want) to have access to every type of ammunition, AP included.
In my country we don't have city or county SWAT teams, but we have special intervention teams at the State level, and they basically can have any equipment they want.

The real question is if devs have implemented correctly the difference between the two ammo types both in terms of materials penetration and wounding effects, and I'm a bit skeptical of this.
Although we need a serious comparison video made by someone who can recreate, in game, some sort of "ballistic test ground", much like it was done for Arma 3 by Dslyecxi (video below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cix07R1vlhI&t=328s

[Andy Mil]

u like
not trying to engage 200m so best probably test on top of party map where u shoot from spawn stair to the end bar. if sus spawn there
or
farm map where sus spawn at another side of build and u wanna snip from ruined building across right wing if u facing from spawn to left wing building
I did but that was older version. I dont wanna test something so unlikely people wanna equip fake x4 zoom scope to engage only in this map
there go velocity damage multiple (IF dev somehow put effort into this then sry)
now left are what cuz random pen. I test looong before and it like random. Some wall will pen and in same wall but not same place will never pen.

also i think the game run simply pen stuff so no complex material slow down cuz I dont believe dev again gonna put effort into each material type stuff stop bullet yet. But I believe it work like it only pen one object/wall stuff and when it hit other wall
bullet gonna magically disppear.
Dev also not put a stop to this pen stuff too U will able to shot through furniture wall stuff through multi sus alive NPC stuff soo people stacking dont stop bullet at all.
pistol also able to do this too soo dev probably havent add material bullet type stop bullet power complex engage sniper range 500m stuff yet

Tho they just add ricochet too and it might save people behide gun or someone dat stand in wrong angle

[Graywolf364]

Originally posted by The airborne Hedgehog:

I think is perfectly normal for a special intervention police team (name it anyway you want) to have access to every type of ammunition, AP included.
In my country we don't have city or county SWAT teams, but we have special intervention teams at the State level, and they basically can have any equipment they want.

The real question is if devs have implemented correctly the difference between the two ammo types both in terms of materials penetration and wounding effects, and I'm a bit skeptical of this.
Although we need a serious comparison video made by someone who can recreate, in game, some sort of "ballistic test ground", much like it was done for Arma 3 by Dslyecxi (video below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cix07R1vlhI&t=328s

This is me being obsessively and unnecessarily overly precise again. During the pandemic I supplemented my income with some technical advising (on a different subject though) so I've gotten into the habit of these unnecessary information dumps. Apologies in advance.

True AP 5.56 ammunition is extremely rare. What you have instead is certain types of FMJ erroneously referred to as AP. They usually have a copper jacket with a core composed of a steel tip (the penetrator) and a lead (although the lead is increasingly being replaced with other materials) rear section. This is what SS 109 (the standard 5.56 round for NATO) and M855 are comprised of. Italy uses a domestically produced copy of SS109 for military and police service manufactured by Fiocchi. They also manufacturer several HPBT/BTHP (hollow points) rounds for Italian law enforcement. Supposedly there is a Fiocchi manufactured Black Tip armor piercing 5.56 round, but I don't think it's produced anymore was never available in large quantities.

The thing about true armor piercing 5.56 like M955 and German DM31 is that it's extremely expensive to produce. It's performance on hard armor is significantly higher than even M855A1. And it carries a significant over penetration risk. I'm talking about being able to penetrate through an engine block and continue penetrating lengthwise through a car crashing through multiple people in the car and keep going levels of over penetration. It's just not practical.

That said, like you described in your post; I could absolutely see GIS or ROS (my family back in Italy have historically been career Carabinieri) having access to some sort of Black Tip as part of their specialty weapons. Just not regular stock.


I think in game they should just rename the AP ammo to FMJ and be done with it. FMJ as an acronym has been used enough in popular culture that it shouldn't cause issues with clarity.

[The airborne Hedgehog]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Originally posted by The airborne Hedgehog:

I think is perfectly normal for a special intervention police team (name it anyway you want) to have access to every type of ammunition, AP included.
In my country we don't have city or county SWAT teams, but we have special intervention teams at the State level, and they basically can have any equipment they want.

The real question is if devs have implemented correctly the difference between the two ammo types both in terms of materials penetration and wounding effects, and I'm a bit skeptical of this.
Although we need a serious comparison video made by someone who can recreate, in game, some sort of "ballistic test ground", much like it was done for Arma 3 by Dslyecxi (video below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cix07R1vlhI&t=328s

This is me being obsessively and unnecessarily overly precise again. During the pandemic I supplemented my income with some technical advising (on a different subject though) so I've gotten into the habit of these unnecessary information dumps. Apologies in advance.

True AP 5.56 ammunition is extremely rare. What you have instead is certain types of FMJ erroneously referred to as AP. They usually have a copper jacket with a core composed of a steel tip (the penetrator) and a lead (although the lead is increasingly being replaced with other materials) rear section. This is what SS 109 (the standard 5.56 round for NATO) and M855 are comprised of. Italy uses a domestically produced copy of SS109 for military and police service manufactured by Fiocchi. They also manufacturer several HPBT/BTHP (hollow points) rounds for Italian law enforcement. Supposedly there is a Fiocchi manufactured Black Tip armor piercing 5.56 round, but I don't think it's produced anymore was never available in large quantities.

The thing about true armor piercing 5.56 like M955 and German DM31 is that it's extremely expensive to produce. It's performance on hard armor is significantly higher than even M855A1. And it carries a significant over penetration risk. I'm talking about being able to penetrate through an engine block and continue penetrating lengthwise through a car crashing through multiple people in the car and keep going levels of over penetration. It's just not practical.

That said, like you described in your post; I could absolutely see GIS or ROS (my family back in Italy have historically been career Carabinieri) having access to some sort of Black Tip as part of their specialty weapons. Just not regular stock.


I think in game they should just rename the AP ammo to FMJ and be done with it. FMJ as an acronym has been used enough in popular culture that it shouldn't cause issues with clarity.

Hi Graywolf....yes I know quite well the difference 'cause I've been L.E. myself and I'm quite confident with firearms instructor qualification.

I agree on introducing FMJ ammo, and I would structure the ammo types onto 3 kind (FMJ, AP and JHP).
By the way if I don't recall wrong, Swat 3 and 4 had these three types of ammo.

By the way, as a sidenote, the actual HRT-like special police units in my country are GIS and NOCS.
The R.O.S. you are referring is a kind of special investigative unit of Carabinieri, not a Swat-type unit.
I appreciate you know my country by the way ;)

[Graywolf364]

I was born in Italy and my extended family is from there but moved when I was very young. Bounce around a few different places around the world before eventually settling in the United States. I've been back a few times but not nearly as much as I would like. I wish I was more knowledgeable about Italian military and law enforcement. I find it fascinating especially with the family connection with the Carabinieri. I sincerely appreciate the insight about ROS and NOCS. I'm not super familiar with NOCS so I expect to have some fun researching them! And apologies if I came across as if I'm explaining stuff to you that you are already are an expert in. The euro cops I've interacted with before have had huge variations in their knowledge about firearms and I do try to write these posts so that other readers who aren't familiar with the subject can follow along. I'm fully aware can make me come across as a mansplaining jerk sometimes though!

One thing that I always found interesting about European law enforcement is the scale and distances involved compared to the US. If there is a incident that requires a tactical team in the United States, the closest federal team could be hours away if you're lucky and that's assuming they commit to coming. So small local agencies (either individually or collaboratively) need to have a SWAT capability and increasingly need to be able to respond to terrorism. I have no larger point, and it's not actually relevant to the discussion. It's just something I find interesting when compared to the way Euro tactical teams are structured and deployed. It's always exciting getting insight into how other places handle policing!


Now returning to the subject of the game. I'm warming up to your three ammo types idea. My knee jerk reaction is AP is inauthentic for domestic law enforcement in the United States. Which should be removed or at the very least just renamed to FMJ in-game. But RON takes place in a '90s crime wave like dystopian US with contemporary guns, and dated kit. So some degree of authenticity needs to go out the window to fit was the setting and to be fun. We could have AP have extremely high penetration values (like penetrate through half the map high) but slightly worse terminal ballistics compared to the other options. Have BTHP (in-game JHP) have the best terminal ballistics of the bunch but give it the worst armor penetration. I would prefer it if it was more barrier blind, but for the sake of contrast it could have limited barrier capabilities. And have Green Tip style FMJ be kind of a middle of the road option. With lethality, penetration, hard armor performance being between AP and JHP. Major oversimplification of course, but it could be a good mix for added gameplay nuance. I also think they should be for rifles only, true AP rounds for handguns (even though they do exist) are a bridge too far. Pistol caliber should be limited to JHP and FMJ in my opinion.

[The airborne Hedgehog]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

I was born in Italy and my extended family is from there but moved when I was very young. Bounce around a few different places around the world before eventually settling in the United States. I've been back a few times but not nearly as much as I would like. I wish I was more knowledgeable about Italian military and law enforcement. I find it fascinating especially with the family connection with the Carabinieri. I sincerely appreciate the insight about ROS and NOCS. I'm not super familiar with NOCS so I expect to have some fun researching them! And apologies if I came across as if I'm explaining stuff to you that you are already are an expert in. The euro cops I've interacted with before have had huge variations in their knowledge about firearms and I do try to write these posts so that other readers who aren't familiar with the subject can follow along. I'm fully aware can make me come across as a mansplaining jerk sometimes though!

One thing that I always found interesting about European law enforcement is the scale and distances involved compared to the US. If there is a incident that requires a tactical team in the United States, the closest federal team could be hours away if you're lucky and that's assuming they commit to coming. So small local agencies (either individually or collaboratively) need to have a SWAT capability and increasingly need to be able to respond to terrorism. I have no larger point, and it's not actually relevant to the discussion. It's just something I find interesting when compared to the way Euro tactical teams are structured and deployed. It's always exciting getting insight into how other places handle policing!


Now returning to the subject of the game. I'm warming up to your three ammo types idea. My knee jerk reaction is AP is inauthentic for domestic law enforcement in the United States. Which should be removed or at the very least just renamed to FMJ in-game. But RON takes place in a '90s crime wave like dystopian US with contemporary guns, and dated kit. So some degree of authenticity needs to go out the window to fit was the setting and to be fun. We could have AP have extremely high penetration values (like penetrate through half the map high) but slightly worse terminal ballistics compared to the other options. Have BTHP (in-game JHP) have the best terminal ballistics of the bunch but give it the worst armor penetration. I would prefer it if it was more barrier blind, but for the sake of contrast it could have limited barrier capabilities. And have Green Tip style FMJ be kind of a middle of the road option. With lethality, penetration, hard armor performance being between AP and JHP. Major oversimplification of course, but it could be a good mix for added gameplay nuance. I also think they should be for rifles only, true AP rounds for handguns (even though they do exist) are a bridge too far. Pistol caliber should be limited to JHP and FMJ in my opinion.

you're not a jerk, all the opposite, I think you're very well informed, and I share your point of view about what the game should improve ammo-wise.

[Graywolf364]

Always nice to hear that I'm not a jerk!

What's also kind of funny is I was born in Milano (I saw from your profile that you're in Lombardia) and my trips back have all been to Northern Italy. Who knows, I may have run into you on the job the last time I visited. The extended family is way down in Messina.

[Chronic]

As someone who has witnessed AP rounds in hospital and how much they over penetrate, yes there's a difference and if you're in a CQB environment I'd recommend JHPs over the APs.

[The airborne Hedgehog]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Always nice to hear that I'm not a jerk!

What's also kind of funny is I was born in Milano (I saw from your profile that you're in Lombardia) and my trips back have all been to Northern Italy. Who knows, I may have run into you on the job the last time I visited. The extended family is way down in Messina.

How funny, I live in a city which is not far from Milano...beautiful city by the way, my brother used to live there.
Sent you a friend request

[Graywolf364]

Small world!

I only accept friend requests from people I know in person. To the bunch of you who have sent me friend request because of of my posts in these RON discussions, do understand I mean no offense by ignoring them. But I am sincerely appreciative for the requests.

[Andy Mil]

I play lot more. HP is Dat way for SMG
Just dont play MP5 MP7 MP9 MPX
I have hard time hit limb of terrorist sus tho so if u aim upper torso alot u gotto use AP but I aim like swing sword where not directly at middle of torso target but limb
MPX AP take 6 or 8 torso always of Tra-shlish since forever but HP change them IF u Limb cutter

The modern 74u AK drop in 1 ALOT torso. I somehow aim better with this. might be cuz it soo small and thin But I shoot like SKS clearing terrorist sus at club without reload at all. IT all Nam again tho I think cuz the game wiki said it using Big AK round soo
HP always stun. Never drop injury to me when I going through to the back and top floor destroying every single 7-8 of them. Always stun til sec shot to drop them injury

aya btw I been destroying every single thing dat not turn on flashlight and wearing giant metal board on their back. AP wont drop em civi but HP always does soo there defy something there. I also bring both of ammo

SR16 HP drop injury 3 to torso and always 2 for AP IF not limb shot
Other M4 reskin also always 2 and 3 for HP
and few of em rarely drop 1 for AP and the same for HP

Hmmmmm They Dont have arm hitblock? I got in range of beyonnet to shoot their arm yet my shot all gone through without doing damage even my red dot right on their arm

P90 somehow 6 to torso and shoulder (sus in hurt in stomach animation my aim Off to shoulder) with AP. No brick sound so dat terrorist sus might not wearing armor and its AP usually drop at 3 or 4 or 2
HP also randomly one tap to drop injury
There also my shot not regreister in full brust of 4 or 5 rounds. It go through them but They not drop injury or blood splatter

URGH
I end Up spend sooo long testing this. AK is Dat way. Such underrate gun I havent play In ages cuz She too thin