JHP vs AP

[Webley]

Anybody notice any real difference ingame between the two rounds. Or is just for RP.

[Graywolf364]

When they were first implemented there was no difference between the ammo types. They were placeholders for future expansion.

The changelogs for the Adam claims that there are differences now. If memory serves, the JHPs do more limb damage and the APs are more likely to over penetrate. Supposedly there's also different ricochet and fragmentation values for each.

I did have one scenario where an AP round over penetrated a suspect and hit a civilian that chose the worst possible time to run to a new hiding spot. But it's entirely possible that the same thing could have happened with hollow points. Barrier performance for both ammo types seems to have been nerfed, but it's hard to tell for certain.

In practice, a five shot string to center mass with a rifle seems to be a pretty consistent stop regardless of ammo type and armor. And pistols are always going to have sucky lethality. So I just use hollow points for everything. Mostly for RP reasons. I'm also pretty sure that they got AP confused with FMJ.

[Webley]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

When they were first implemented there was no difference between the ammo types. They were placeholders for future expansion.

The changelogs for the Adam claims that there are differences now. If memory serves, the JHPs do more limb damage and the APs are more likely to over penetrate. Supposedly there's also different ricochet and fragmentation values for each.

I did have one scenario where an AP round over penetrated a suspect and hit a civilian that chose the worst possible time to run to a new hiding spot. But it's entirely possible that the same thing could have happened with hollow points. Barrier performance for both ammo types seems to have been nerfed, but it's hard to tell for certain.

In practice, a five shot string to center mass with a rifle seems to be a pretty consistent stop regardless of ammo type and armor. And pistols are always going to have sucky lethality. So I just use hollow points for everything. Mostly for RP reasons. I'm also pretty sure that they got AP confused with FMJ.

Most likely you know there "advisor" or whatever. Though could you imagine if the dev's actually implemented realistic ammunition in such a way that we actually could choose what ammunition we wanted to run such as a 115gr 9mm or 147gr 9mm hell even M193 ball or M855 "AP". The potential really is there.

[Bruce Springsteen fan]

I'm not even sure SWAT teams IRL commonly use AP ammo.

[Webley]

Originally posted by roomcleaner:

I'm not even sure SWAT teams IRL commonly use AP ammo.

Yeah over penetration being the biggest concern. Much less being able to acquire and issue it. Though i'm sure AP is indeed a misnomer on the dev's part unless the rifles are indeed loaded with steel core rounds. and not just ordinary FMJ.

[Graywolf364]

I want Speer Gold Dots, some Federal HST, Hornady need to be in the mix and maybe some Winchester Rangers! I've also written pages about the need for Flitecontrol buckshot (and a ton of other shotgun improvements).

It's not entirely impossible, but even discounting the overpenetration issue it's doubtful that any domestic agency could acquire true AP in the quantities necessary for duty use. This is complete speculation on my part but I could see some of the DOE teams guarding sensitive facilities having some.

Additionally federal law defines AP ammo somewhat strangely it's based on material composition, and whether or not it can be fired out of a pistol and not armor penetrating performance. That's how they tried banning green tip a few years back because of the rise of AR pistols. A similar strategy was used to successfully ban imports of steel core x39 because of all those idiots running around shooting each other with Dracos.

[Webley]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

I want Speer Gold Dots, some Federal HST, Hornady need to be in the mix and maybe some Winchester Rangers! I've also written pages about the need for Flitecontrol buckshot (and a ton of other shotgun improvements).

It's not entirely impossible, but even discounting the overpenetration issue it's doubtful that any domestic agency could acquire true AP in the quantities necessary for duty use. This is complete speculation on my part but I could see some of the DOE teams guarding sensitive facilities having some.

Additionally federal law defines AP ammo somewhat strangely it's based on material composition, and whether or not it can be fired out of a pistol and not armor penetrating performance. That's how they tried banning green tip a few years back because of the rise of AR pistols. A similar strategy was used to successfully ban some 7.62x39 ammo because of all those idiots running around shooting each other with Dracos.

Hey don't forget about CORBON now. But it's always those same "idiots" isn't it? the "gun violence" and all.

[Graywolf364]

I always forget about Corbon. I don't think I've ever actually seen it on the shelves, but I haven't been looking for it either. I'll always think of it as Glaser but that's just because I'm a Jagged Alliance 2 nerd.

[Wolfsmaul-GER]

AP will work better at penetrating armour than JHP but worse at dealing damage against unarmoured targets

[mathisurien]

police in the uk do have ap rounds in stock, they just don't typically use them without a damn good reason, say if they received word that the target was definitely armoured with Kevlar or something, a very rare/unlikely scenario, but it could and has happened. take for instance, in the us, police used to only receive service pistols, until the north hollywood shootout, where suspects wore homemade kevlar suits, showed the need for patrol rifles etc. similar here in the uk, we didn't used to have armed police anywhere but the war on terror made them a way more common sight. so while it isn't normal for police or swat to carry them and use them on a daily basis, they do stock them in the ammo lockers as a just in case sort of thing. i know police snipers do carry them quite regularly, though that is a very specialist role so i don't know if it really counts. so in short i have no issue with it being on offer, in game.

[Mania]

Originally posted by roomcleaner:

I'm not even sure SWAT teams IRL commonly use AP ammo.

They only will if the situation calls for it.

Mindjot has suspects donning ballistic equipment, so it's possible that law enforcement may employ AP ammunition.

[Charles Vane]

use AP, jhp doesnt kill unarmored suspects any faster, if it was swat 4 one jhp shot would take down the unarmroed enemy, here in this game ttk is the same for unarmored enemies

[RankestDweller]

If you look at the actual model for the AP bullet itself it's not got the black heavy tip that true "AP" ammo tends to have, I think it's really just FMJ and Hollow Point but in the context of SWAT units FMJ is usually penetrative enough to be a concern so it's considered AP by the game.

[Graywolf364]

I originally wrote up an extremely lengthy brief discussing black tip, green tip, M318, and M855A1 EPR. But it disappeared when I switch tabs. Believe it or not what I wrote below is actually significantly simplified compared to my original post.

It boils down to this maybe 95% of the time when people say something is AP it is not actually an AP round. M995 'Black Tip' is one of the rarest and most expensive 5.56 rounds in the world and is uncommon even in military circles. It's illegal to sell in the United States on the commercial market, you can't get any components for it if you want to reload an equivalent, and it's manufactured and distributed by only one company. It's extremely unlikely that it would be in inventory at an agency for anything other than reference.

So what people probably mean is M855 'Green Tip' the US equivalent to NATO SS109. It's technically classified light armor piercing (because of the steel penetrator) in military parlance. Copies under the M855 name are all over the commercial market. Which is something that you should be able to find in law enforcement inventory. I know to many who aren't in the shooting community it may seem silly to insist that green tip is not armor piercing. But the terminology here is very important. And people incorrectly calling it armor piercing was a big part of the reason why the ATF tried and fortunately failed to ban it.

There's also M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round which has largely replaced M855 is combat service. I won't get into the technical details but it has better barrier and hard armor penetrating capability compared to legacy M855. Any M855A1 you see for sale is either a scam or stolen from the government.

Next we have M318 MOD 0 AND MOD. These days it's mostly a SOCOM thing. It's a barrier blind OTM round designed to be run out of short barrels. This is going to be a huge oversimplification but M318 is the closest military equivalent to most law enforcement 5.56 duty ammo. Open tip match rounds are at least in US military legal theory not technically hollow points. Whereas domestic law enforcement is perfectly capable of running BTHP (boat tail hollow points) rounds like the excellent Hornady TAP.

To sum up, domestic US law enforcement agencies will likely be running some form of high performance partially barrier blind hollow point for their patrol rifle ammunition. They'll probably have some variety of FMJ for low cost training. And a Green Tip equivalent for training or for dealing with special threats. They probably do not have a true armor piercing round in inventory that could be deployed insignificant quantity for on duty use.

[Graywolf364]

Originally posted by mathisurien:

police in the uk do have ap rounds in stock, they just don't typically use them without a damn good reason, say if they received word that the target was definitely armoured with Kevlar or something, a very rare/unlikely scenario, but it could and has happened. take for instance, in the us, police used to only receive service pistols, until the north hollywood shootout, where suspects wore homemade kevlar suits, showed the need for patrol rifles etc. similar here in the uk, we didn't used to have armed police anywhere but the war on terror made them a way more common sight. so while it isn't normal for police or swat to carry them and use them on a daily basis, they do stock them in the ammo lockers as a just in case sort of thing. i know police snipers do carry them quite regularly, though that is a very specialist role so i don't know if it really counts. so in short i have no issue with it being on offer, in game.

The United Kingdom does not actually have an armor piercing 5.56 round. Or at least one that's documented publicly. These kind of things are hard to keep secret. So the AP rounds you're probably referring to are actually one of the many SS109 equivalents that are manufactured in the UK. It also might be their loose equivalent to the M855A1 that recently started being fielded.

At the risk of being overly nick picky. I mean no disrespect. I'm just extremely precise. Kevlar is a fabric. Most Kevlar armor is what's called soft armor. Which is mostly rated to stop pistol rounds and buckshot. Practically any centerfire rifle will shred soft armor without issue without needing FMJs or AP. Hard armor which are those rigid plates you see in plate carriers are mostly but not exclusively designed for rifle threats. The good ones have edge to edge protection and are multi-hit rated. In military circles, Kevlar is also a slang term for your helmet.

For anyone else who might be reading this Google CTSFO. They're hardcore.

[Andy Mil]

The AP Here literally like everyday standard bullet. It is not super specialized armor pricing and HP J thinggy is Hallow Point. I did notice stuff a little that it not much diff but I prefer standard bullet cuz of extra pircing armor is wat I need for P90.
I gonna test now for limb damage stuff. test subject are Sus at gas map then I gonna switch to some armor sus.

The sus of gas map. all both down in 4 and 3 with random limb or torso. I feel like hallow point more likely to stun but other time dont. I think I saw in changelog of this P90 update that mention bullet type stuff change tho it still all feel the same currently
also everything over pen. I literally shoot this dude to hit my bot for test at another room. I even saw some smoke stuff bullet impact with Hallow Point or when I shot civi for fun and somehow it go through his butt despite I shot front. (his grab his butt so defy my shot hit the butt)

Map Barsia Co and shoot in brust. Sus all stun and my shot over pen through they armor but usually they all drop in brust of 4 or 5 or 3 but when caught alive for live test. They drop injury in 2 and shot 4 to kill. Hallow Point
all are torso shot best of I can aim

AP torso caught alive take 6 shot to kill one. This Some weird stuff
shot at 3 drop em injury