Remember how this game was gonna be like 'SWAT 5'?

[Revolver Bosselot]

Just watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjscQ0HtaCg

I feel like, since 2017, this vibe was never achieved.
Our SWAT officers, despite not wearing balaclavas, somehow feel more soulless than the ones presented in the original trailer here. The gear looked less bland and more iconic.

Is it just me? This game don't feel like SWAT 5. Not saying that's a bad thing but what do you guys think?

[Gunfreak]

I felt SWAT 4 was a let down after SWAT 3, they removed bullet penetration for one, that completely changes stuff like how important it is to hit just what you aim at.
There was also more variation, some times those bodyguards behaved nicely, sometimes they would pull on you.

[Chubzdoomer]

Originally posted by Major Fret:

It's obvious how much more thought was put into SWAT 4 when it comes to the core gameplay. Suspect AI is much more human, SWAT AI has more personality and whilst not perfect, at least doesn't need to be told to hold position every 30 seconds. Civilians can actually be non-compliant. There was actual thought put into objectives involving arresting suspects.

They can be noncompliant in RoN as well! It just depends on which map you're playing, as the civilians on some maps seem less likely to be cooperative than others. I've had to melee/taser a bunch of them just to make them comply.

[Major Fret]

Originally posted by Chubzdoomer:

Originally posted by Major Fret:

It's obvious how much more thought was put into SWAT 4 when it comes to the core gameplay. Suspect AI is much more human, SWAT AI has more personality and whilst not perfect, at least doesn't need to be told to hold position every 30 seconds. Civilians can actually be non-compliant. There was actual thought put into objectives involving arresting suspects.

They can be noncompliant in RoN as well! It just depends on which map you're playing, as the civilians on some maps seem less likely to be cooperative than others. I've had to melee/taser a bunch of them just to make them comply.

Maybe in one or two but it never really happens to a degree that it should. There's plenty of maps where civilians could be non-compliant but aren't (Rust Belt, Carriers of the Vine, Hide and Seek), and I've never found civs to be such an issue where I'd consider changing my loadout, which is another issue I have with RoN. VOID set up so many interesting concepts that could make players change up their loadout (NVGs, suspects with Gas Masks, the need to be fast during Active Shooter/bomb threats) and fail to capiltize on any of it.

[Reynis]

more like SWAT 3 lmao. realism-wise this isnt even close to tarkov. this is what COD would look like if it tried to be realistic.

[Reynis]

Originally posted by Henry:

Originally posted by Revolver Bosselot:

Just watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjscQ0HtaCg

I feel like, since 2017, this vibe was never achieved.
Our SWAT officers, despite not wearing balaclavas, somehow feel more soulless than the ones presented in the original trailer here. The gear looked less bland and more iconic.

Is it just me? This game don't feel like SWAT 5. Not saying that's a bad thing but what do you guys think?

I really dont get your point.
The mechanics are better than swat 4.
The way you play the game depends on you. If you rush it john wick style its your fault. Im certain if u play swat 4 nowadays it would feel dull and lame.
This game is definitely a successor. But just not if you are playing it like its cs.

My opinion, make the bots even better and put a real threat on the players, its too easy atm so they stop rushing like idiots.

The reason people (myself included) play this John Wick mode is because your team AI is basically a burden. If played with friends, sure, its totally different but AI is worthless.

To fullfill this niche, a complex AI is required. I truly appreciate the enemy AI playing dead, pulling guns after surrender, taking human shields, but as it is, its simply not enough for the AI not to be predictable.

Enemy AI simply patrols from point A to point B. When you face them, point your gun at them and tell them to surrender, they face you, do this slow stupid walk for 2-3 seconds and you just know that they are now about to pull up their gun and shoot you, hence you fire first and probably get points deducted by TOC for not complying with the ROE, which was never clarified at all whatsoever.

I would like for the AI to take positions if they hear you coming or firing your gun, to hide or try to sneak up on you. Like in the tweaker map, I saw a guy hide under a bed once. That should happen more often and in more places. Under tables, desks. Inside closets (they are there but they just dont hide). Instead they come up to a door and mumble incoherent phrases somehow not noticing the camera cable that's been sneaking under the door waiting for him to reset his waypoint and turn around so that you can just peak and shoot him.

Which mechanics are better than in Swat 4? Please note this game was made 20 years later. Of course it should indeed have better mechanics than SWAT 4. This game is pretty much SWAT 4 with some extra details and nicer graphics (game could not be worse optimized).

[Reb Militia]

Originally posted by Bregastor:

And now, almost 10 year later you are all here praising SWAT4 itself, while 90% of the merit of how good the game is goes to EFM.

Never played EFM or even heard of it. And there's no nostalgia involved because I still play SWAT 4 time to time. It is better, hands down, sorry pal.

[Intensiv - Glücksbärchi]

In Swat 3 suspects even hide in cupboards and cabinets.

In the 2nd Mission there is only one civilian and 1 suspect. Father and son. Every time i played the mission it turned out completley different. I also loved the reactions of the AI Team when you made mistakes in the toc reports.

I ve played Swat 3 for the first time 3 weeks ago after I finished RoN. It was astonishing how much better it was in every aspect besides graphics.

No need for rose tinted glasses. The Swat Series is still enjoyable today and head and shoulders above RoN.

[steven777]

SWAT 4 is probably my favourite game ever. Played it on and off since it released.

But no way I was playing it unmodded. Used voice commands and all sorts of mods. The same with Ready or Not.

Vanilla vs vanilla - then SWAT 4 is the better SWAT game.
But ain't no one playing SWAT 4 vanilla and Ready or Not modded is better.

[Major Issue]

Originally posted by steven777:

SWAT 4 is probably my favourite game ever. Played it on and off since it released.

But no way I was playing it unmodded. Used voice commands and all sorts of mods. The same with Ready or Not.

Vanilla vs vanilla - then SWAT 4 is the better SWAT game.
But ain't no one playing SWAT 4 vanilla and Ready or Not modded is better.

Same - playing SWAT 4 since 2005, remember playing it on FX5200 with shaders disabled. But SWAT 4 is still feature complete game and I've played it actively every year without mods until 2021, then I found out SEF. RoN is not feature complete game and it never will be by just using mods since you can't mod in SWAT control over body cams, snipers and similar features.

[Intensiv - Glücksbärchi]

Originally posted by Major Issue:

Originally posted by steven777:

SWAT 4 is probably my favourite game ever. Played it on and off since it released.

But no way I was playing it unmodded. Used voice commands and all sorts of mods. The same with Ready or Not.

Vanilla vs vanilla - then SWAT 4 is the better SWAT game.
But ain't no one playing SWAT 4 vanilla and Ready or Not modded is better.

Same - playing SWAT 4 since 2005, remember playing it on FX5200 with shaders disabled. But SWAT 4 is still feature complete game and I've played it actively every year without mods until 2021, then I found out SEF. RoN is not feature complete game and it never will be by just using mods since you can't mod in SWAT control over body cams, snipers and similar features.

I don't understand why they didn't at least implement the swat control over body cam feauture. Would give much more tactical depth. So many things are broken in RoN .. it just feels rushed out. Given all that potential RoN has, it's sad.

This game really needs more content and the basic mechanics and AI working desperatly.

[S3rva1]

I feel like the SWAT games are overglorified so that the comparison between them and RON seems more dramatic than it is. SWAT 4 is a wonderful game, the scenarios are fun and enjoyable, the voice acting is phenominal, and you really did feel immersed in the game. However, the gunplay of SWAT 4 is more akin to an early COD than a tactical shooter, the movement controls are underbaked, and the AI command system is more like RON alpha than 1.0 release. All of these are problems of the era more than inexperience on the SWAT devs side.

RON does impove on these faults while still expanding on the formula of SWAT 4 by fleshing out tactical combat, providing more options, and using modern AI intelligence to improve the SWAT AI. RON absolutly has its problems with Suspect AI, map geometry, and overall some of the missions feel like too much.

I am not arguing a binary point of "SWAT 4 bad; RON Good." They both have their strengths and they both have problems and I feel like that is very often skipped over.

[Intensiv - Glücksbärchi]

Originally posted by S3rva1:

I feel like the SWAT games are overglorified so that the comparison between them and RON seems more dramatic than it is. SWAT 4 is a wonderful game, the scenarios are fun and enjoyable, the voice acting is phenominal, and you really did feel immersed in the game. However, the gunplay of SWAT 4 is more akin to an early COD than a tactical shooter, the movement controls are underbaked, and the AI command system is more like RON alpha than 1.0 release. All of these are problems of the era more than inexperience on the SWAT devs side.

RON does impove on these faults while still expanding on the formula of SWAT 4 by fleshing out tactical combat, providing more options, and using modern AI intelligence to improve the SWAT AI. RON absolutly has its problems with Suspect AI, map geometry, and overall some of the missions feel like too much.

I am not arguing a binary point of "SWAT 4 bad; RON Good." They both have their strengths and they both have problems and I feel like that is very often skipped over.

I don`t think the movement controls in swat 4 are underbaked in any way.
Many things work much more fluid and natural than in RoN. That also includes the suspect and team AI.

Also the tactical depth in combat and gameplay was not fleshed out by RoN, it was boiled down. Gone is the AI over body cam control, the sniper and much more. Even in swat 3 you actually had to think and observe the situation while giving reports to toc and the Team AI reacted on that.

[Lumpenmann]

Originally posted by DuckieMcduck:

Originally posted by S3rva1:

[...]
However, the gunplay of SWAT 4 is more akin to an early COD than a tactical shooter [...]

I'd like to interject that the gunplay of SWAT4 is actually incredibly obtuse. Please just open it (and if you don't have it, go get it on GoG) and go into the tutorial, the very first segment is the shooting range.

In it, you cannot even move your aim too quickly (flick) before having the aim recepticle become the size of the moon. To flick or fire on the move will have your shots basically teleport towards the ground and walls. Go full auto in SWAT4 with a battle rifle? It will do all the previous, and basically break your ingame spine as it throws the crosshair into the ceiling. Completely different ballgame.

Originally posted by S3rva1:

RON does impove on these faults while still expanding on the formula of SWAT 4 by fleshing out tactical combat, providing more options, and using modern AI intelligence to improve the SWAT AI. RON absolutly has its problems with Suspect AI, map geometry, and overall some of the missions feel like too much.

I would say it heavily devolves the SWAT4 experience by attempting to fix the "fault" of the shooting mechanics. Because aiming is easy in RoN, it turns every other tense situation into a gunfight.

This lead to a snowball of issues, where they needed the AI to become just as cracked and even suicidal to overcome player confidence. The ballistic shield is a massive bandaid in RoN because as a tool it implies the design of "tactical combat" is literal head on combat, and unsurprisingly it trivializes a lot of the engagements in the game.

SWAT4 still had serious issues, namely sometimes your squadmates going braindead and not responding as well as weapons going through the floor... you may now wonder where you've heard those before (or after?).

swat 4 gunplay is so dull and boring. its basically run and gun and you always hit, its impossible to miss a single bullet in that game wtf is that guy talking about????

[Bregastor]

Originally posted by Henry:

swat 4 gunplay is so dull and boring. its basically run and gun and you always hit, its impossible to miss a single bullet in that game wtf is that guy talking about????

Swat 4 gunplay was really dull and boring, yes. But for the opposite reason of what you said, if you tried to run and gun in the game you would be dead at the first enemy with your bullet holes all over the ceiling.

Vanilla Swat4 did not even allow you to aim, you could only zoom. And bullet placement was dependent on the crosshair size and not on where the gun was pointed at.

What are you talking about?

[Bruce Springsteen fan]

Originally posted by Jaggyroad:

I think a LOT of people either have rose tinted color glasses about older games, never played SWAT4, or need validation. SWAT4 was far from perfect.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but it was way better than RON. SWAT 4 felt like a complete game where RON still feels like an early access title.