ROE is confusing

[nope]

Before I say anything, know that I know basically nothing about how ROE is in real life and what is allowed/not allowed. Anyways, I was playing the Spider mission and had a suspect jumpscare me from a corner and shot me pretty much everywhere, my whole body was red. Took cover as fast I could and shot him in the chest (didn't kill him, just incapacitated). I got -50 for unauthorized use of force. I feel like shooting was justified in that situation, but I got no idea. Is this a bug or is that an actual ROE thing?

[𝒞𝒶𝓈𝓊𝒶𝓁 Sinner]

It sounds like he started surrendering after shooting you and you just got unlucky.

The other option is that you shot through him and hit a civilian on the other side, that is a very real possibility, especially on that map where it is as tight and civilian packed as it is. It is hard to say without a video, but even then.

[nope]

He was shooting the whole encounter, the only reason he stopped was from my gunshot to the chest. From what I could tell, there wasn't any penetration through walls, and there wasn't any civs in the room.

[RedBjorn]

Just echoing the same sentiment as Casual. I've had some weird situations where I shot a suspect, and had the bullet impact a civilian pretty damn far away. Occasionally we're just unlucky and catch a guy as they're surrendering. It can be very binary.

[nope]

Yeah, tbh it was probably a last ditch surrender from the suspect. That's happened a lot to me too.

[RedBjorn]

Unless you're achievement hunting, your life is a lot easier if you don't focus too heavily on the score.

[nope]

I try not to, makes the game a hell of a lot more fun if you're not looking for scores. Here and there I do notice something like that, and I just get a bit confused about it.

[RedBjorn]

That's a mood. I try to keep it as realistic as possible, applying the rules of engagement I'm familiar with, but sometimes the game just says NOPE. Feces occurs.

Funnily enough, the ROE can be funky to your advantage. If an enemy actively has a weapon up and aimed, even if they're on the other side of a door/wall, etc., and can't see you, you can 100% smoke them. I've gotten quite a few bad guys this way without penalty. Found guys "hunting" or "aimed" at a door and turned them into Swiss cheese without reprisal. I see it as intent. If you're sitting in a corner aimed at a door, it's pretty clear what the intent is.

[nope]

I also make an attempt (admittedly very poor) at staying within what I assume would be ROE, but I kinda suck at it. I have muscle memory from too many games where I just shoot on sight. Still haven't shot a civ with that though. Anytime I see a guy trained on a door, I usually just C2 it, usually the blast stuns/incapacitates them.

[SebTheSamMarten]

Just now, my very first time playing, I had a suspect literally open fire on me from the chips aisle of the gas station and I used the Pepperball Rifle on him. Two shots, both in the chest. As he starts coughing and puts his hands up, I get -50 for 'Unauthorized use of Force'.

So apparently I'm just not allowed to use Non-Lethal weapons against suspects who are actively firing at me?

He was alone, there was no bullet pen because Pepperball is basically ranged pepper spray, no civilians were near enough to be hit by the gas, it was just the one guy. Maybe the second shot was considered 'unauthorized' because the first made him surrender? I have no clue, but I feel like extra NL rounds shouldn't count as 'unauthorized'... Better to be sure they're going to comply than to have them fake-surrender and shoot you because you didn't want to hurt their feelings.

It'd be different if they were unarmed, pepper spraying civilians for fun obviously isn't cool, but...

[Dehumanizer]

If the ROE in the game were same as in real life you would never get a single use of unauthorized force. Suspect is armed and threatening the life of an officer or civilian? Fire at will. Civilian is uncooperative even after reapeating commands? Spray them, wrestle them to the ground, tackle them - just don't shoot them. Even if a civilian was holding their hands behind their back and running towards the officer you would be perfectly justified in shooting them because, in that moment, there was no way to know if it's a weapon or not.

The famous "fake surrender" in the game we all love so much would give you carte blanche to ventilate the suspects body with a dozen rounds in the real world.

Maybe abusing an already restrained suspect or civilian would get you a stern talking to.


You just can not compare them. There are so many more factors to consider in the real world that no developer can realistically work into the game. If an officer involved shooting isn't 10000% clear cut you have hearings, interviews, evidence gathering and analysis that can take weeks to really figure out what went down.

[Private Homestead]

Even if you just (LTL) shotgun a guy who has already given in (not start to give in, but when the gun is down and they put their knees on the floor) you get a violation. As others stated, especially with high calibers and AP rounds, you could have overpenned and hit someone else.

IRL ROE is complicated too.

[Novah]

I got deducted points for headshotting a suspect that was holding a hostage. Literally nothing else to do in that situation.

[Trivvy™]

I feel like a more robust method needs to be developed to determine ROE compliance. Right now I think the states are just tied to the AI. So if the AI is like "if you shoot me, it violates ROE", regardless of the actual context or scenario, you get penalized.

What they should maybe try (if they haven't already) is have a vector going out of every suspect's gun barrel, if that vector hits a friendly or civilian (within a reasonable distance), regardless of the state the AI is in, it should open up a window to shoot them without penalty.

[Shadeball]

Originally posted by Trivvy™:

I feel like a more robust method needs to be developed to determine ROE compliance. Right now I think the states are just tied to the AI. So if the AI is like "if you shoot me, it violates ROE", regardless of the actual context or scenario, you get penalized.

What they should maybe try (if they haven't already) is have a vector going out of every suspect's gun barrel, if that vector hits a friendly or civilian (within a reasonable distance), regardless of the state the AI is in, it should open up a window to shoot them without penalty.

This and something similar needs to apply to knife wielders. Just yesterday I was playing dorms and a suspect with knife in hand started walking towards me- at about 15 feet- after refusing to drop the knife. She had been tased, beanbagged and sting-naded. Still decided to walk towards the police holding a butcher's knife after being yelled at for 30 seconds straight to drop it.

"uNauThoriZed uSe oF dEadlY fOrce" because the game considered her to just be non-compliant at that moment.

[RedBjorn]

Originally posted by Shadeball:

This and something similar needs to apply to knife wielders. Just yesterday I was playing dorms and a suspect with knife in hand started walking towards me- at about 15 feet- after refusing to drop the knife. She had been tased, beanbagged and sting-naded. Still decided to walk towards the police holding a butcher's knife after being yelled at for 30 seconds straight to drop it.

"uNauThoriZed uSe oF dEadlY fOrce" because the game considered her to just be non-compliant at that moment.

You should see how British police deal with situations like this. :P