AI Reaction, Accuracy and Mobility

[Kyan]

Hey folks, so I've been enjoying the game thoroughly, the gunplay feels nice (though some more recoil effects would be nice to see), movement is intuitive and smooth, the AI both civilian and enemy are very reactive and I love the level of unpredictability and civilian presence that makes direct-action police work so dangerous.

However, there is something to be said for the AI's reflexes and accuracy, specifically the false aiming they use, as well as their overall mobility in certain situations, here are the main problems I have.

Reactions

Numerous times I've come around a corner and caught an enemy AI lacking, their gun is directly away from me, their body is faced away from me, but I don't feel safe closing the distance for numerous reasons (open terrain, too many angles, low armor, etcetera.)

So, I request they put their weapon down.
And immediately get Hollywood Navy SEAL 180'd with a revolver despite wearing heavy armor and a ballistic facemask.

Accuracy

In reviewing a couple of recent recordings, as soon as I requested the AI drop their weapon, they start turning in almost all cases, that's fine, the problem then becomes that their muzzle doesn't actually have to be on target to fire - I don't know the exact amount of lee-way they have, but they can be turned off to your side and still apparently head shot you.

I'm aware the game is still early in development, and I'm not oblivious to the fact that making AI actually point their weapons accurately at their targets and having their bullets fire from their muzzles is likely difficult, but it is one of the only things that frustrates me and one I can't really avoid.


Even if getting the AI to fire exactly from their muzzles wasn't possible, I'd be content with a surprise mechanic, if a player requests an AI to surrender and the player is behind that AI, make the subsequent few seconds of AI aiming inaccurate - or at least the first shot - reward the player for getting the drop on an opponent.

I'd also like to note that I did actually react in time, I shot first on numerous occasions with a 5.56 caliber rifle as the AI were mid-turn, but unfortunately my bullet didn't have any effect on their aim, which is ... interesting, but not unexpected.

Mobility

Easily the reason I die the most is the AI's mobility, they side step with the speed of Sonic himself, and are no less spiny when this mobility is combined with their reaction time and accuracy.

On one hand, I sort of like it, it means first-shot lethality on resistant armed suspects is highly encouraged as in all likelihood you're going to die if you miss, this mobility also means AI are able to duck through doorways very fast and escape S.W.A.T officers quickly, heightening the stakes and increasing the risk of being flanked for every second that suspect isn't reacquired, it also makes for exhilarating short firefights as players try to predict the movements of armed suspects who are generally faster and more evasive than most AI I've ever faced.

But, on the other, not everyone is MARSOC-level accurate, and for these players even catching the AI unawares won't save them due to the aforementioned points.

Further, their mobility through doorways is an issue of it's own, yes it means they can escape quickly, but it also means they can get through that doorway faster than most average players can react - this has killed entire stacks numerous times already, even with two officers covering the door, all it takes is one guy with a shotgun or rifle to zip through that doorway with the legs of Usain Bolt and boomstick everyone on the other side, and even if the lads covering manage to fire, these AI can survive one to two shots and not even have their aim affected.

Final Thoughts

Overall, I like the AI and their behavior, and the gunplay (when you survive enough of it for it to qualify AS a gunfight) is exhilarating and lethal, but it's a real kick in the teeth when you do almost everything right and just get John Wick'd by a revolver, ran over by a shotgunner, or obliterated by an RPD-wielding man you just shot twice in the chest and once in the neck from fifteen meters away.

Personally, I hope that these few AI mechanics make it into the development schedule somewhere down the line:

- Surprised (Reduced AI (first shot?) accuracy when ordered to yield from behind.)
- Suppressed (Slightly reduced AI accuracy when being fired upon but not impacted.)
- Stricken (Reduced AI accuracy (only enough to maybe miss a shot or two) when struck by a projectile (could be dependent on where they were shot?).
- Reduced AI movement speed when moving around doorways.

Lastly, I'm aware these are all debuffs for the AI, and that some players may find these suggestions to be a case of skill issue, but I'm making them with the hopes that the AI are further developed to be even more challenging and that players are given more problems to deal with in future such as suspects hiding under beds, in closets, using human shields and other mechanics of that nature.




So, what's your opinion?
That's my piece, thanks for reading and good luck on your future operations folks.

[Three-ay-em]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Recon:

The difficult AI is what have hooked me. Keep the hard difficulty an option. Aimbot or not this is what keeps you on the edge. I see your points; if they can work it - I'm all for it. Just leave an extreme mode for us to choose.

exactly ive been playing nonstop.

[Replicant Six]

On the topic of AI, I would love to see the damage physics we see from RDR2 and that whole system used to rig ragdolls and damage. Having some more realistic stumbling or AI reacting to gunshots would be amazing.

However I don't know how expensive that tech is and I don't even have the first idea how easy it would be for the devs to integrate it but imagine the current fights but with a lot more realistic bullet hit reactions and bodies dumping when the AI dies. Hell in the future there could be implemented tables to knock over or something and imagine them knocking into furniture or through doors knocking them open.

[Igotdild4u]

One thing that gets on my nerves is the Olympic sprinter hostages. One second theyre putting their hands up, the next theyve broken the sound barrier and are running towards a room full of people with guns. Pepper spray doesnt seem to do anything so I wind up having to just kind of follow them until they eventually decide to surrender.

[Kyan]

I seriously desire a tackle system, and specifically a tackle system.
I've heard the argument that it reduces difficulty when you're able to instantly subdue a target, civilian or otherwise, because you no longer have to manage them.

Well, how about trading your ability to fight back and remain aware of your situation for absolutely, positively detaining this one person, right here, right now.

Tackle a guy, a variable-length wrestling animation takes place for 4-8 seconds and boom, you've got yourself a fully subdued target, cuffed and searched.

That way, you're making a trade-off: I get to subdue this guy, but I'm super vulnerable doing it.

[Retrox]

Part of a convincing AI model would be simulating a suspect's state of mind when he engages the team. Panicked or fleeing suspects should be far less accurate when running and gunning or when snap shooting off guard. Contrast this with a suspect who is dug in or immobile who should absolutely be able to top you in one shot with a long arm if you peek him from a vulnerable angle.

Many of us like to adhere to RoE as closely as possible, even if the game doesn't explicitly penalize as strictly as SWAT 4 does. In SWAT 4, you can kind of read what a suspect is LIKELY to do based on his demeanor, but you still need good trigger discipline and reflexes to make the right call in time. Maybe we just need more animations for the suspects to give better tells? I'm sure it's going to be tricky finding that balance between realistic and challenging.

I've tried one of the "better AI" mods, and it made the game way too easy by just hosing enemy aim across the board regardless of range or positioning. Good AI should be very nuanced.

[Mojo]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Recon:

The difficult AI is what have hooked me. Keep the hard difficulty an option. Aimbot or not this is what keeps you on the edge. I see your points; if they can work it - I'm all for it. Just leave an extreme mode for us to choose.

Have to disagree. This isn't difficult AI, this is cheating AI. I've had deaths where I knew I screwed up and analyzed my mistakes. I've also had deaths where I've been wallhacked by AI (literally) because of clipping issues, bad bullet pen, and -- yes -- poorly programmed AI.

Looking at the INI file for the AI behaviour, some of it is patently ridiculous. The AI has some reaction times that are 0.2 seconds -- that's 200 milliseconds, or about 70 milliseconds faster than it takes a human being, on average, to react to stimulus. That human reaction time also isn't hear noise -> aim directly at head and pull trigger. Normal human reaction of about a quarter of a second is to press a button in response to light stimulus.

AI morale is also bizarrely calculated. The beanbag shotgun takes them down 0.2 morale (the tazer incaps immediately, and the pepperballs deplete 0.05 morale each, for reference). Beanbag rounds are extremely painful, and getting hit by one WILL incapacitate you in two shots, if not one. Yes, there's armor, but there's no AI calculation for HOW they use their armor to avoid those rounds. A beanbag to the head and a beanbag to the torso and a beanbag to the armored torso all have the same effect.

Watching somebody get killed demoralizes the enemy by the same amount as a beanbag round, as well. I'm certain that watching the person next to you get killed suddenly has a devastating psychological effect on criminals.

Looking through the INI file, what I see is cheating AI that's given by-the-numbers math rather than tactical decisions. There's no real effect on psychology, or pushing a person into a no-escape situation. A person getting shot next to you might break you, but push it too far and it might also push you to panic and fight back even harder. None of that is there.

[Retrox]

Interesting stuff, Mojo, thanks for that. Sounds like there is plenty of room for improvement in the AI department.

[Mojo]

Opprinnelig skrevet av retrox:

Part of a convincing AI model would be simulating a suspect's state of mind when he engages the team. Panicked or fleeing suspects should be far less accurate when running and gunning or when snap shooting off guard. Contrast this with a suspect who is dug in or immobile who should absolutely be able to top you in one shot with a long arm if you peek him from a vulnerable angle.

Many of us like to adhere to RoE as closely as possible, even if the game doesn't explicitly penalize as strictly as SWAT 4 does. In SWAT 4, you can kind of read what a suspect is LIKELY to do based on his demeanor, but you still need good trigger discipline and reflexes to make the right call in time. Maybe we just need more animations for the suspects to give better tells? I'm sure it's going to be tricky finding that balance between realistic and challenging.

I've tried one of the "better AI" mods, and it made the game way too easy by just hosing enemy aim across the board regardless of range or positioning. Good AI should be very nuanced.

Seems like you posted just a tad before I did with the same thought. I'll really second there's. There's no AI psychology. A guy with a gun pointed to the back of his head is unlikely to draw down on a cop, whereas somebody who's a hardened criminal looking to fight back might start to prep an ambush.

And yeah, ROE is real loose. On the hotel level, if you go behind the two way mirror, you can blast a suspect who can't even see you without penalty if they're holding a gun. Same with just firing into a door.

They don't need to be threatening anybody, just holding a weapon, and it's extrajudicial execution time.

I'd like to see more appropriate psychology. The guys at the hotel are armored, hardened criminals itching for a fight. I'd want to see those guys more entrenched, ready for ambushes, and waiting until you kick in the door to reveal themselves.

The guys at the meth den, on the other hand, are squirrelly gang-bangers likely high on their own supply. I'd like to see blind panic fire through walls and doors (not the laser accurate wallbanging they do now) if they hear you, followed but quickly breaking down the moment they make real contact.

Approaches dictate as much by the psychology the suspects as anything else.

Hell, while we're on it, bake those into the objectives and get rid of the cheesy objectives like "find the suspect list" that make no sense (SWAT secures the scene, detectives come later and toss EVERYTHING.)

[Retrox]

Yeah, agree with all that Mojo. I think it's safe to assume that since the AI scripts are so rudimentary right now, we'll definitely see refinements in that department as the game develops. It's a functional AI for now, but it's a far cry from what we had with SWAT 4, especially with mods. No doubt the devs are aware of the shortcomings.

[Gramps]

I've had the AI kill me the instant the level started at the meth house, that was fun

[denkart]

Gotta agree. AI reaction times and movements are bit too fast. Had one guy that I snuck up behind and told to put his hands up, by the time my gun got back into the ready position (since the gun dips a bit when you issue the command), the AI had turned around completely, taken about 5 steps to the left, and fired 2 shots at me lol. It all happened simultaneously.

[Cryptic]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2689677038

[HolyMolyLive]

The AI has maxed out speed of light and Aimbot from the Hell. Please fix this game immediately!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jester]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Hyperion Biga:

If they do any nerfs to the AI, it should be optional (difficulty level selection).

There's already organized squads like Karmakut who can clear the map with no civilian or police losses, under 10 minutes. Part of the appeal for squads like that is the tough AI

Been binge watching Karmakut and OperatorDrewski playing this game, also some others like real military ppl who use realistic tactics and voicecomms...

The whole charm of the videos is the super tough AI. So they need to take it seriously, play perfectly together, and they might still die. Once content creators can sleepwalk through the coop missions, the game will be dead in YouTube/Twitch

Actually I hope they add even harder versions, where theres more perps, time limit, better enemy armament, more roaming bad guys who travel already cleared areas unless it's wedged... and such things.

No one is saying they should be able to run-and-gun the map. The AI in the game currently knows too much information, which allows them to oneshot you before you've even finished saying the first word of "Drop the weapon". Also, if you slow down those oneshot recordings, you'll find that more often then not, you're dropping dead before the AI has even aimed their weapon at you.

[Froggyluv]

Why do people who hear others say they want a realistic reacting AI automatically think they want the AI nerfed? This is nonsense thinking -the deadlier the AI are (with as human as possible reactions) the better. We all =want to test our reflexes against realistic turn and orient to fire times of an enemy -animation speed realism is CRITICAL in a game like this