shouldnt all shotguns be able to breach doors?

[MadRooster]

just curious why only breaching shotguns

[𝒞𝒶𝓈𝓊𝒶𝓁 Sinner]

There's a few aspects that go into it. From my understanding, the breaching shotgun is a real tactical that uses special rounds to blow the door open the way it does. From a game balance perspective, it also means that shotguns aren't a one size fit all, they already personally do feel like a great choice since the game is heavily CQB.

[Spooderbilly]

The breaching shotgun uses specialized frangible rounds for blowing off parts of a door without hurting people on the other side, the other shotguns in the game don't.

[Graywolf364]

Breaching rounds are a specialty type of ammunition that's designed to do maximum damage to the door frame, locks and hinges but minimize the potential damage to anything on the other side of the door. Some manufacturers even list them as less lethal because they are designed to disintegrate shortly after being fired. But they will still potentially kill someone when fire directly at someone at close range. Which depending on policy may be a good thing (for emergency self defense use) or not (legal liability).

Some agencies and end users use a dedicated breaching shotgun that is only used with breaching rounds and for breaching. Much like how bean bag and the elusive XREP shotguns are are used with dedicated and specifically marked shotguns. Others want a shotgun that can function in both the breaching and fighting shotgun role. In this case they are often carried as a primary weapon.

Breaching shotguns very greatly. But most will be pump action because beaching rounds may not be powerful enough to reliably cycle a semi-automatic shotgun. Although you're starting to see more of the semi-automatic 1301 in to the breaching role. It's also not uncommon to have a specialty externally threaded barrel to fit a further specialized muzzle device. This serves partially as a standoff device, partially to direct muzzle blast into the door, and partially to get better bite into the door by using the sharp teeth on the end of the muzzle device. Typically they will be pistol grip because many users find it easier to better manipulate the shotgun into the proper angles for breaching.

Were things different is form factor. Barrel length can vary, but longer ones have the benefit of larger shell capacity (great for more complicated doors) and a little bit of extra clearance from the doorway. Shorter ones are obviously more compact but sacrifice tube size. The former is understandably more attractive if you want the dual role shotgun, the latter tends to be more common on the dedicated.

Obviously Ready or Not went with the dedicated shotgun which isn't inauthentic. But the 1301 can be customized in a way to resemble some of the more common breaching setups.

I've written a lot about this topic and I would be very happy with both options being available in-game. BUT the primary shotguns currently have a significant amount of problems (and start in a state of readiness that is impossible) and I believe that they require a significant overhaul in their core mechanics. I have a trend documenting some of my thoughts on that look, for a discussion starting with 'Cruiser Ready'. Additionally the ammo switching mechanic isn't really set up to support more than two types of ammo at this time.

[shadowsc133]

I just wish the breaching shotgun did at least some damage at close range. It does nothing currently and that is not just unrealistic but not fun.

[Spooderbilly]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Breaching rounds are a specialty type of ammunition that's designed to do maximum damage to the door frame, locks and hinges but minimize the potential damage to anything on the other side of the door. Some manufacturers even list them as less lethal because they are designed to disintegrate shortly after being fired. But they will still potentially kill someone when fire directly at someone at close range. Which depending on policy may be a good thing (for emergency self defense use) or not (legal liability).

Some agencies and end users use a dedicated breaching shotgun that is only used with breaching rounds and for breaching. Much like how bean bag and the elusive XREP shotguns are are used with dedicated and specifically marked shotguns. Others want a shotgun that can function in both the breaching and fighting shotgun role. In this case they are often carried as a primary weapon.

Breaching shotguns very greatly. But most will be pump action because beaching rounds may not be powerful enough to reliably cycle a semi-automatic shotgun. Although you're starting to see more of the semi-automatic 1301 in to the breaching role. It's also not uncommon to have a specialty externally threaded barrel to fit a further specialized muzzle device. This serves partially as a standoff device, partially to direct muzzle blast into the door, and partially to get better bite into the door by using the sharp teeth on the end of the muzzle device. Typically they will be pistol grip because many users find it easier to better manipulate the shotgun into the proper angles for breaching.

Were things different is form factor. Barrel length can vary, but longer ones have the benefit of larger shell capacity (great for more complicated doors) and a little bit of extra clearance from the doorway. Shorter ones are obviously more compact but sacrifice tube size. The former is understandably more attractive if you want the dual role shotgun, the latter tends to be more common on the dedicated.

Obviously Ready or Not went with the dedicated shotgun which isn't inauthentic. But the 1301 can be customized in a way to resemble some of the more common breaching setups.

I've written a lot about this topic and I would be very happy with both options being available in-game. BUT the primary shotguns currently have a significant amount of problems (and start in a state of readiness that is impossible) and I believe that they require a significant overhaul in their core mechanics. I have a trend documenting some of my thoughts on that look, for a discussion starting with 'Cruiser Ready'. Additionally the ammo switching mechanic isn't really set up to support more than two types of ammo at this time.

Thanks, you taught me some ♥♥♥♥ I didn't know.

[Graywolf364]

Originally posted by shadowsc133:

I just wish the breaching shotgun did at least some damage at close range. It does nothing currently and that is not just unrealistic but not fun.

If my recollection is correct most of the commonly used breaching shotguns have an effective self-defense range of about 10 yards. Because of the artificial level design of RoN, most gunfights take place well within that range. So essentially you just ended up is it something that performs just as well as the primary weapon shotguns (as they exist currently) in the tool slot.

What I semi seriously propose is that the breaching shotguns get updated with damage output and spread of the primary weapon shotguns as they are now. Then update the primary weapon shotguns with unarmored lethality on par with the rifles and a tightened up pattern.

One thing that I didn't mention in my write-up, which in retrospect isn't obvious if you're not already familiar with the topic is that with either approach to ballistic shotguns, it's advised that the SWAT ballistic beacher only have beaching rounds. They're still potent enough to use in close range and you eliminate the possibility of using the wrong shell accidentally. And of course if you're using one of those tiny stockless SPS you'll likely have a rifle as your primary weapon.

[shadowsc133]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Originally posted by shadowsc133:

I just wish the breaching shotgun did at least some damage at close range. It does nothing currently and that is not just unrealistic but not fun.

If my recollection is correct most of the commonly used breaching shotguns have an effective self-defense range of about 10 yards. Because of the artificial level design of RoN, most gunfights take place well within that range. So essentially you just ended up with a regular shotgun in the tool slot.

What I semi seriously propose is that the breaching shotguns get updated with damage output and spread of the primary weapon shotguns as they are now. Then update the primary weapon shotguns with unarmored lethality on par with the rifles and a tightened up pattern.

One thing that I didn't mention in my write-up, which in retrospect isn't obvious if you're not already familiar with the topic is that with either approach to ballistic shotguns, it's advised that the SWAT ballistic beacher only have beaching rounds. They're still potent enough to use in close range and you eliminate the possibility of using the wrong shell accidentally. And of course if you're using one of those tiny stockless SPS you'll likely have a rifle as your primary weapon.

Yeah. I`m far from a shotgun (or any gun) expert, but I don`t need that to know a breaching shotgun to the chest would hurt badly. It doesn`t even tickle the suspects, believe me, I tried.

I like your proposal. I`m a simple man and having the breaching at least stun them at close range would be a good start.

[MODERATORS HAVE BRAINROT]

Sometimes

[Graywolf364]

^^ Putting aside realism for a second, there is something to be said for being able to immediately engage after ballistically breaching the door in-game. It doesn't have to be lethal at whatever the in-game measurement for 10 yd is, but having it be lethal at contact or near contact ranges and having it stun and/or do a tiny amount of damage at farther than that with a steep drop off I think would be appropriate. Arguably the magical door unlocking kick fits that particular role since you can engage with your selected weapon as soon as the animation is done but it's not quite the same from a style standpoint.

I'm sure some would reasonably argue that the ballistic shotgun being used as a weapon would break balance and make the game too easy. But I would counter that at least for myself, part of the fun is learning how to manipulate your tools and use tactics to make the engagements easy or at the very least easier. I find pleasure in having things go according to plan. And players can modulate difficulty by choosing not to use it or choosing not to engage enemies with it. I also suppose breaching shotgun damage could theoretically be enabled with a gameplay option that could be carried over to server options.

[✠ GUNNAR ✠]

They need to fix the breaching shotgun so you can't blow open a door from 20 feet away with it.

[Graywolf364]

Turns out the breaching shotgun does do damage to NPCs. It takes 4 shots to the head at close range to kill a civilian in the lobby testing area. And it seems like it takes 9 for torso hits.

Originally posted by ✠ GUNNAR ✠:

They need to fix the breaching shotgun so you can't blow open a door from 20 feet away with it.

You're absolutely right, I didn't test that until you mentioned. Thats a huge oversight that I hope they fix. You should only be able to breach doors with the breaching shotgun at near contact ranges.

[shadowsc133]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Turns out the breaching shotgun does do damage to NPCs. It takes 4 shots to the head at close range to kill a civilian in the lobby testing area. And it seems like it takes 9 for torso hits.

Originally posted by ✠ GUNNAR ✠:

They need to fix the breaching shotgun so you can't blow open a door from 20 feet away with it.

You're absolutely right, I didn't test that until you mentioned. Thats a huge oversight that I hope they fix. You should only be able to breach doors with the breaching shotgun at near contact ranges.

I think it doesn't do any damage to suspects during missions. I did 6 shots at close range on fast food suspects (no armor). Nothing.

Lobby and friendlies have tweaked stats.

[Graywolf364]

Wouldn't surprise me. And if it takes 7 to 9 torso hits to take down a civilian AI in the lobby at close range, having to reload and restock on ammo several times there is absolutely no way you could practically do that in an operation. It also made me realize that it's about time our player character learn how to twin load.

[shadowsc133]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Wouldn't surprise me. And if it takes 7 to 9 torso hits to take down a civilian AI in the lobby at close range, having to reload and restock on ammo several times there is absolutely no way you could practically do that in an operation. It also made me realize that it's about time our player character learn how to twin load.

Lol please offer your consultation service to Void.

My weeks-long tirade concerning the john wick+robocop+terminator AI was akin to punching knives.

One can only hope they read your observations at some point and agree the Breaching Shotgun is BS.

[Graywolf364]

I just hope they read my proposals for how to improve shotguns in general. Since that would make them a much more nuanced choice in a world of rifles and bring mechanical enhancements to all the weapons.

Out of curiosity I ran the lobby shoot house with the breaching shotgun (game does register it as valid hits) and given the limited tube size and the lack of sights, I think the breaching shotgun is 'balanced' enough that it should be able to do damage and work as an emergency self defense weapon immediately after breaching the door. I'm sure it will become popular for a time to use the breaching sock gun as a pseudo second primary weapon, and I say so what. This is a PvE game and a tactical sandbox. If players want to run the Breaching shotgun like a primary weapon more power to them.