I have a question for the IRL SWAT members and operators out there.

[VforVeranda]

I led a team into a bad room last night and we had our assets handed to us.
It was big, had multiple entry points and lots of places to hide inside. My bad choice killed the team.

On IRL missions, you obviously have ways of doing the job as safe as possible and part of that is obviously doing an risk assessment and choosing a path to go; which rooms to enter at which times/order and from what angle/entry point.

So my question is this:
What does a safe choice consist of in regards to where to move within a structure?

[「 Boss 」]

Not a SWAT member, but maybe I can pass on a little advice.

Try to pick the entrance with the clearest view of the whole room. If there is none but there are multiple points, don't forget you can queue your team commands with SHIFT, and by scrolling you can break up commands between red and blue team members. In these situations I would break up your team to breach two doors at once.

I would give a riot shield to two of your team members, one on blue and one on red. Before 1.0 they would never automatically use the shield but they do now. They will pull them out prior to breaches and clear rooms with them drawn. This will result in much less team injury or deaths.

Do not forget gas nades and gasmasks. Gas is a wonderful tool for clearing a room that is very cluttered or has low visibility or even leads into another level.

Hope this helps.

[Gonzo850]

The game already put you in an unrealistic situation by sending only 5 Swat members to deal with these missions. I'm assuming that you are committed and can't leave the room to attack from another side. Then my suggestion for that situation is to split your team in two. Don't let them spread out too far. Take one door at a time. One team is going to hold security outside the door. The other is going to breach one door at a time. Make sure there is always a teammate holding overwatch in the general direction of the hallways and doors that haven't been cleared yet.

Disclaimer - I'm not a SWAT member or Operator. I'm a combat veteran Marine and trained in a lot of urban combat while in a F.A.S.T platoon. I'm no expert but I know a few things.

[BoostBlitzen]

Not an operator or anything like that, but what I have seen/heard from people that are, is they simply won't approach something blindly unless they have no other choice. Usually a team picks an entry point with the intelligence they've gathered prior to arrival, they stack up on the best entry points based on decades of experience (avoiding open areas, lack of cover options, funnels, etc.), then they breach (flashbang, gas, etc.).

The first person in knows where to go based on the entry-type and how the door opens (e.g. you are going to pie the left side of the room and go in), and then the very next team member is literally right behind him, and told to pie from middle to the right side of the room. The next guy in cleans up, and the guy(s) behind are watching the rear before finally entering.

There is a lot of nuance to it, and they practice those scenarios a thousand times so they know without making a noise, and by tapping each other, what to do and where to go into every room. They trust that each team member will shoot the guy on the opposite side of the room, that the first guy can't see.

Personally, I approach things in a way where if I do not like the cover coming into an entryway, I will go around and try a different door. In this game, you have to double-back a lot to probe defenses and get better angles into an area you want to go through. Your best bet is to figure out who is the breacher, who is right behind him, and 3rd in line, watching the rear, etc., and stick to those roles 100% in order to be successful.

[Amplifier]

Very unlikely you're gonna find a SWAT member here (I'm pretty sure you cant even disclose you're from SWAT due to confidentality). Even ex-SWAT members are pretty rare since SWAT itself is a rare unit.

Anyway I used to watch those crime documentaries on TV and from what I see, indoor urban fighting is itself, rather rare. SWAT officers never just charges into a building unless it's urgent, like there's a ticking time bomb, hostage or whatever.

Also it's very very very very rare to find situations whereby the premise is flooded with armed suspects. You can see on Wikipedia here[en.wikipedia.org] the list of hostage crises throughout history. It ain't many, really.

Majority of the time, it's just one angsty dude taking a bunch of hostages that eventually suicides or surrenders after his demands are met or gets sniped. You arent gonna find daily cases of dozens of armed suspects in a building lmao like in this game. That's just a little boy's imaginary wet dream of SWAT that almost never happens in real-life.

Those large scale hostage crises that did happen in history on the other hand, can last for as long as MONTHS, and normally by then the government will call in the military special forces instead of SWAT. SWAT is mostly to deal with small petty criminals who dont even anticipate SWAT arriving anyway.

And when SWAT does breach, they'll first spam a lot, a lot, of smoke grenades...tear gas grenades...whatever else... then probably send in drones or some s***, then finally after believing no one could survive so much gas spam, they'll charge in. By this point the hostages cooped up would be too weak to fight back. Again, 99.99% of the time, it's really just ONE suspect they're dealing with. So it's easy. The problem is only when hostages are involved.

[Mr. Snek]

I am not former military nor LEO. What I have learned is from friends who have served in the military and have served with PMCs and LE. One friend of mine is on a well-known SWAT team. With that said, as another user mentioned, these scenarios aren't realistic with only a 5 man SWAT team. That said I will provide what has worked for me in this game.

It is all about control and denying them movement. I use lots of wedges and split red team from blue team. Blue team is my go to doorkickers with beanbag shotguns. Red team is designated rear unless it is a larger room that blue team and myself can not properly control. Then Gold team will breach. Do not be shy about using flashbangs and stingers, nor gas. Charlie (blue team) is equipped with a gas launcher. Use all of this to control the flow and keep moving in that flow, taking one room at a time. In larger rooms, I will toss in a flash deep for double the flash which is pretty effective! Study the prints/maps and during debrief to put together a plan of how you want your team to move.

[Gonzo850]

Originally posted by Relax:

The general rule was to NOT fall back but to PUSH into the building we wanted to clear in a steady and progressive manner as this did not allow the perpetrators to re-organise themselves.

This is a very real text book rule. It works in real life when suspects are outnumbered and easily overwhelmed. In this game the Swat team is outnumbered. Maybe this works in this game when playing with mods. But for this game I gotta play it like a combat situation most of the time. (Situations where you have to get creative and break some rules.) Sometimes I recommend giving up a room and blocking it with a wedge instead. Go make an entry somewhere else where you know you have the advantage.

[Reapums]

The big issue I find this game presents is the ability to get flanked. Now normally you'd have a larger element moving through the building with you that you could flex to cover doors you aren't ready to clear, or to section off the building and allow multiple squads to secure different areas within the structure. To mention nothing about providing outside cover so no squirters could get wily and flank.

But since you're stuck with a five man fire team and... Nothing else... My suggestion is door wedges for those pesky entry points you can't actually keep guns trained on. Boxing suspects in and limiting their ability to maneuver helps you not get surprised or have to double back to re-clear the entire map.

Everything else is just identifying entry points that enable your team the ability to spread out, dominate large sections of the room (Or preferably the entire room), and not leave you too exposed to follow on threats in the form of things like windows/hallways/other doors/ect. If you do decide to split your team up, I'd recommend only doing so as to keep coverage on something you can't wedge off/easily control like staircases. Even then, I'd work quickly to reform your team so you can resume moving with a full element. Barring short/small rooms where you really can only get two guys in there, it's always better to move into a room with a full team.

[Kfrost]

So I am retired LEO and was part-time swat. So, I still did all the same training, but I was also a patrol officer and then a detective and would get called on for large operations to help and fill in where needed.

It was rare we ever had the floor plans of places we needed to breach. And to be 100% it was rare we ever had to breach anything like the game does. Barricaded subjects were pretty simple because we would just wait until they gave up, or gas them out. The rare times we had to legit form elements and breach was usually done after a robot and drones had done tons of recon. So we would make our own layout maps.

The game is pretty far from what it's like because there is very rarely an unknown number of suspects and a situation where we would have to go in. Years ago we had a combat vet have a really bad crisis and he lived in an old three story house on a hill. He barricaded everything and went into his attic where he was sniping at the surrounding houses. That was a rare breach and it was eerily similar to the Twisted Nerve mission except it was just one guy. He had made a network of sandbag trenches and barbed wire all across his house. It was the most terrified I had ever been lol. But in that situation, planning was an on the fly kind of thing. Using snake cams and what not we tried our best to see what was coming, but it was such a disaster in there we had to just shield up and move a slow as possible. We were worried there would be traps and what not, but thank god there wasn't. The guy surrendered once we got to the attic. He thought tigers and men in white suits were besieging his house.

In training for active shooters, our way of clearing is very systematic until we hear shots, then we are under orders to sprint to the shots. It's a crap shoot most of the time and you just have to rely on training to handle things. We have tactics for left, right, center, top, and bottom fed rooms. It really boils down to get in with multiple guys, form a line and draw the aim of any aggressors. It's insanely rare you get anyone that can accurately shoot at fast moving targets, especially when there are multiple of them. Then assess and act accordingly. Check the hot corners and slice the pie on any door ways. Make sure you have someone covering the door and the unknown. It can get complicated because once we clear rooms or hallways we want to make sure we keep them clear so we will have units stay in place and have to ensure we don't make knowns unknown again.

TLDR; on the rare occasion we ever had to breach and go room to room, it was reliant on training for general situations and working off the cuff when needed. RoN is a really fun game, but holy hell I would be moving out of the state if it was anything like it is in game lol.

[Gonzo850]

Originally posted by Kfrost:

Very interesting post. Thanks for sharing. What would you do if you only had 4 teammates and were stuck in the situation op described?

[LCpl Nubcake]

Can't really speak to the law enforcement side, but we did do room clearing in MOUT towns as part of basic infantry training. The emphasis was on violence of action, avoiding standing in fatal funnels, and providing adequate security and coverage of a room while breaching.

We didn't have any idea on building or room layout, we had to deal with rooms as they come while the rear element provided security. Approaching a room depended on whether the doorway was open or not and what we had on hand (If we had grenades some of us just opted to use it to clear lol. Then again the training was less focused on ROE and more on room clearing in the military context), but entering was pretty consistent and each man in the stack covered a sector of the room as they made entrance.

In this game that's probably what's going to boil down to for a successful room clear, trust in your teammates getting in there and getting full coverage of the room as quickly as possible. Make sure someone is holding down security so the perp doesn't sneak around and get the drop on you. Take note of cleared areas, but always go in with the mindset that you're going to have to clear it again. Game has door wedges, so anything that can used to control movement helps especially with rooms with multiple entry points.

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by Relax:

I don't think SWAT members have to keep this a secret, in the U.S they often don't even cover their face properly and openly admit they are SWAT. I assume each departement has a different policy over there? I had only little contact with SWAT in the U.S.

Where I did my service, we actually were not allowed to disclose anything more to the public than that we work for the federal police and only close family members and friends knew about what we do, however afterwards we could talk freely about it. We are just not allowed to disclose any sensitive data... Also I would not really reveal my face online and then talk about it.

Hmm I guess SWAT ain't 'special forces' enough then

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by Kfrost:

So I am retired LEO and was part-time swat. So, I still did all the same training, but I was also a patrol officer and then a detective and would get called on for large operations to help and fill in where needed.

It was rare we ever had the floor plans of places we needed to breach. And to be 100% it was rare we ever had to breach anything like the game does. Barricaded subjects were pretty simple because we would just wait until they gave up, or gas them out. The rare times we had to legit form elements and breach was usually done after a robot and drones had done tons of recon. So we would make our own layout maps.

The game is pretty far from what it's like because there is very rarely an unknown number of suspects and a situation where we would have to go in. Years ago we had a combat vet have a really bad crisis and he lived in an old three story house on a hill. He barricaded everything and went into his attic where he was sniping at the surrounding houses. That was a rare breach and it was eerily similar to the Twisted Nerve mission except it was just one guy. He had made a network of sandbag trenches and barbed wire all across his house. It was the most terrified I had ever been lol. But in that situation, planning was an on the fly kind of thing. Using snake cams and what not we tried our best to see what was coming, but it was such a disaster in there we had to just shield up and move a slow as possible. We were worried there would be traps and what not, but thank god there wasn't. The guy surrendered once we got to the attic. He thought tigers and men in white suits were besieging his house.

In training for active shooters, our way of clearing is very systematic until we hear shots, then we are under orders to sprint to the shots. It's a crap shoot most of the time and you just have to rely on training to handle things. We have tactics for left, right, center, top, and bottom fed rooms. It really boils down to get in with multiple guys, form a line and draw the aim of any aggressors. It's insanely rare you get anyone that can accurately shoot at fast moving targets, especially when there are multiple of them. Then assess and act accordingly. Check the hot corners and slice the pie on any door ways. Make sure you have someone covering the door and the unknown. It can get complicated because once we clear rooms or hallways we want to make sure we keep them clear so we will have units stay in place and have to ensure we don't make knowns unknown again.

TLDR; on the rare occasion we ever had to breach and go room to room, it was reliant on training for general situations and working off the cuff when needed. RoN is a really fun game, but holy hell I would be moving out of the state if it was anything like it is in game lol.

Exactly my point as well. This game is like SWAT on steroids lol

If SWAT had to do 18 of these missions on such regular daily basis, I dont think anyone would want join SWAT.

Hostage crises situations are also insanely rare. I think most countries each would probably only experience 1-2 hostage crises in a century. And most of the time, a hostage crises would just involve one crazy dude. It's not really viable for a criminal to take hostages in a fixed location where they'll get surrounded anyway since it's a one-straight ticket to prison if the person surrenders eventually.

I think the only country to experience plenty of such crazy hostage crises is Russia[en.wikipedia.org]. That country is just whacked, since the governemnt doesnt seem to really care about hostage casualties either.
The Moscow theater and Beslan school hostage crises sounds even more crazier than this game's missions

[IvantheFormidable]

Originally posted by reignworld:

I think the only country to experience plenty of such crazy hostage crises is Russia[en.wikipedia.org]. That country is just whacked, since the governemnt doesnt seem to really care about hostage casualties either.
The Moscow theater and Beslan school hostage crises sounds even more crazier than this game's missions

But even though are two cases in over 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, which I think adds to the point already addressed in this post: the situations that the SWAT team has to deal with in-game are, to be clear, nuts by comparison to our world. But I guess the devs thought the game wouldn't be very exciting if it was clearing low level organized crime and drug addicts out of location after location.

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by IvantheFormidable:

Originally posted by reignworld:

I think the only country to experience plenty of such crazy hostage crises is Russia[en.wikipedia.org]. That country is just whacked, since the governemnt doesnt seem to really care about hostage casualties either.
The Moscow theater and Beslan school hostage crises sounds even more crazier than this game's missions

But even though are two cases in over 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, which I think adds to the point already addressed in this post: the situations that the SWAT team has to deal with in-game are, to be clear, nuts by comparison to our world. But I guess the devs thought the game wouldn't be very exciting if it was clearing low level organized crime and drug addicts out of location after location.

Well yeah, exactly. You wanna wait out 12 hours outside one single suspect's home getting ready, then finally breaching and it turns out the suspect already killed himself?
That's basically how most situations end up as lol

It's the same for military shooter games too. It's a lot a lot of waiting and camping around and ground combat is usually the final straw. Even in the Ukraine War, it's mostly drone warfare now.

[Gonzo850]

Originally posted by Entity:

Thank you guys, I'll follow your advice. I don't want to go to school anymore and I am planning on using RoN to train for the FBI SWAT.

If you are tired of school then I recommend military service. By the time you are done with your service they will make you want to go to school and they will pay for it too