"Unauthorized use of force/deadly force"

[Rocky McRockerson]

I'd consider a suspect reaching into their pockets and grabbing a weapon a good reason to use deadly force. I'd also consider anyone, including civis, reaching into their pockets a good reason to use normal force.

[partycrashr]

I think there are a few problems with this currently. But for starters, as ECHELON said, this is a SWAT game, for simulating police ROE. It's not a milsim or COD where you are supposed to shoot "everything". That's not "what American Police do" lol. Yes, Telu, you are forced to make split-second decisions in life or death situations, that is the point of the game. That is what officers have to do in those situations, and that is what the game fairly accurately simulates.

The issue I have is when yelling at someone for compliance and they start walking towards me with a weapon. I had this issue multiple times on the port mission. I yelled for compliance and an armed suspect continued to approach me in a combat stance, so I shot and felt 100% justified, but the game didn't think so. I've had other similar issues with lack of compliance as well when I tell a suspect to drop a weapon and they don't, and I get penalized for it. I think it's an issue with the AI perception, and not being able to see if the AI has perceived you are talking to them. The only other issue I have is the jumpy movement of the AI at times. I have seen an AI start to lower their weapon (really slowly...maybe too slowly), but they suddenly jump straight up and appear to shoulder their weapon and I've shot them. That to me is a clear indicator of a threat, I'm not waiting for the weapon to be fully shouldered and pointed at me before taking action to protect myself and fellow officers/nearby civilians.

Grubbs - if you have to shoot, you should intend to kill, as you are already using lethal force. Intentionally shooting to wound is typically illegal. If you are in a situation where you feel you have to use your firearm, shoot until the threat is stopped.

At the end of the day, this is still just a game, and every simulation has is limitations. It is a good tool for training, and I would encourage it be "taken seriously", as it is a rewarding and somewhat educational experience. If you are looking for more advanced/accurate training, I would encourage you to reach out to your local police department and see if they allow the public to participate in general training, specifically FATS or another similar trainer, to see what it is like in a real life scenario, especially where not everything is a scenario where you shoot. After the simulation, you typically get to review your actions with the trainer, allowing you to justify any action you took.

In the real world, I've always lived by the motto "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six".

[DuckieMcduck]

The messed up part about the game is that you're pretty much free to fire at everyone and their grandmother with the beanbag shotgun, which mutes half your concerns with the game score. Its beanbags also manage to freeze suspects in place unlike a lot of the ammunition in the game which cause enemies to comically shrug off and run for cover, so it's actually superior to a lot of options namely the SMGs.

Granted, if you're caught by multiple angles with the beanbag out you're gonna have a bad time. But that'd be true for any weapon, and most likely a failure to breach properly.

imo the game should have more ways to have suspects surrender (particularly, seeing other gangbangers being taken down should have them consider surrendering on their own). It often turns into a kill house otherwise. The game has some backwards "stress" system which I think should make suspects more brave the less lethal you are, not the other way around.

[Roelv97]

&y님이 먼저 게시:

ROE makes you have to shout for compliance before you shoot anybody unless you're using something that is less-than-lethal. Problem is that the reaction from suspects is always shooting at SWAT as soon as their arbitrary reaction speed cap has passed, there's never any hesitation or fear or panic like you might see in SWAT 4 AI, it's always just 100% guns blazing until you inflict a stun or enough morale damage.

Yea or it's you shouting at an armed suspect for 5 minutes while the suspects just calmy walks away out of your sight... like wtf, oh and don't think about putting one in their leg because that's a no-no too.

[Roelv97]

partycrashr님이 먼저 게시:

I think there are a few problems with this currently. But for starters, as ECHELON said, this is a SWAT game, for simulating police ROE. It's not a milsim or COD where you are supposed to shoot "everything". That's not "what American Police do" lol. Yes, Telu, you are forced to make split-second decisions in life or death situations, that is the point of the game. That is what officers have to do in those situations, and that is what the game fairly accurately simulates.

The issue I have is when yelling at someone for compliance and they start walking towards me with a weapon. I had this issue multiple times on the port mission. I yelled for compliance and an armed suspect continued to approach me in a combat stance, so I shot and felt 100% justified, but the game didn't think so. I've had other similar issues with lack of compliance as well when I tell a suspect to drop a weapon and they don't, and I get penalized for it. I think it's an issue with the AI perception, and not being able to see if the AI has perceived you are talking to them. The only other issue I have is the jumpy movement of the AI at times. I have seen an AI start to lower their weapon (really slowly...maybe too slowly), but they suddenly jump straight up and appear to shoulder their weapon and I've shot them. That to me is a clear indicator of a threat, I'm not waiting for the weapon to be fully shouldered and pointed at me before taking action to protect myself and fellow officers/nearby civilians.

Grubbs - if you have to shoot, you should intend to kill, as you are already using lethal force. Intentionally shooting to wound is typically illegal. If you are in a situation where you feel you have to use your firearm, shoot until the threat is stopped.

At the end of the day, this is still just a game, and every simulation has is limitations. It is a good tool for training, and I would encourage it be "taken seriously", as it is a rewarding and somewhat educational experience. If you are looking for more advanced/accurate training, I would encourage you to reach out to your local police department and see if they allow the public to participate in general training, specifically FATS or another similar trainer, to see what it is like in a real life scenario, especially where not everything is a scenario where you shoot. After the simulation, you typically get to review your actions with the trainer, allowing you to justify any action you took.

In the real world, I've always lived by the motto "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six".

i mostly agree, but LE is trained to shoot at suspects who have a firearm.(in the context of these missions, being voilent suspects who've already harmed people)
no officer in their right mind is going to wait untill the weapon is shouldered, because at the end of the day everybody just wants to go home is one piece.