Mandatory Arrest Objectives and Why They're Dumb

[Reapums]

Okay. So. I understand in a High Risk Warrant Service that we probably want to take said suspect being served the warrant in ALIVE. That's all fine and good.

However. Why am I being expected to take people in alive in the midst of a mass shooter event? Why are we told we have to secure a known cop killer via nonlethal measures despite his willingness to KILL COPS? Why am I being sent into a Cult of Shub-Niggurath and told I need to apprehend two of the cult leaders when the entire cult is armed with automatic weapons and have ALSO already killed cops?

What makes it even more unbelievable is that missions where taking people alive would be viable/make sense, aka the high risk warrant service to the illegal weapons manufacturers or the car dealership, it isn't present and it's pretty much a weapons free zone.

My breaking point is "Relapse." At no point in the real world or a sensible fake one, would any team of operators be expected to take an HVT alive in the midst of an active shooter/bomb threat. It makes the game unrealistic to a staggering degree and makes you more likely to replay a bad mission over and over again in an attempt to reach an arbitrary score rather than completing a mission in a tactically proficient manner. It's as if this game has become "Rangisims: The Game."

But this is also an issue highly compounded by the terrible AI. It's a horse that's been beaten to death already in this discussion board, so I'll leave it be as best as I can, but the facts remain. Most of the suspects I'm expected to "Arrest" are the suspects with the highest resilience to arrest baked in. I personally busted out laughing when I failed "Neon Tomb's" arrest objective when the HVT ran through an open door with a full IOTV and an RPD. I got the wonderful alert that I failed the objective when I zippered him after he elected to level said belt fed at my head, heedless of my warning to drop his weapon.

I don't know why the leaders of a fanatical Elder God cult, the leaders of an Islamic extremism group, the conspiracy laden cop killer, the pedo home owner with his personal PMC group, or the cat boy pedo with his harem of gang bangers, are of the upmost importance to be brought in alive when they are also the most adamant about going down in a blaze of glory.

Once again referring to the most holy and vaunted of all games, "SWAT 4," that game had it where you were required to "Neutralize" key suspects in particular. You would be awarded more points of you captured said key suspect alive, but you wouldn't fail the mission if you didn't capture the cult leader of the "Children of Tyrone." Mostly because the vast majority of suspects in that level flip wildly in terms of resistance and expecting the players to complete that mission without any kills is insane for someone casually playing through it. Likewise, the game didn't expect you to bring a bean bag shotgun to "St. Michael's Medical Center" or to "Mount Threshold Research Center."

Because at that point you're rushing in to multiple active shooter threats that are highly motivated, well armed, and ready to kill or be killed for a cause. You're encouraged at that point to go full lethal with the expectation of constant conflict. But that's also because missions like that tweaked the AI appropriately. You can do the "Food Wall" or the "Qwik Fuel" and have most suspects surrender with very little provocation due to the depth of their AI.

At the end of the day, I feel these arbitrary arrest objectives are detrimental to the game and evoke a sense of "Gamisim" that makes completing missions "Correctly" feel only like a thing to do in order to unlock cosmetics/gain achievements rather than being rewarded for thinking a mission out and executing it well.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[Nightman]

I understand that it's slightly unrealistic, but also consider that these game mechanics represent a scoring system not only in game, but in relation to a "realistic" SWAT deployment.

Firstly, it's entirely possible to pass and complete a mission even if you do kill the HVT (I shot the HVT on Valley of The Dolls and still passed with a C). Additionally, if you incapacitate a suspect and then secure them, it's still considered an arrest which isn't too hard if you pack the right ammo

I tend to see the scoring as either the "canon" outcome of the mission, or the one that the public will like the most. Getting an S or A rank means you went above and beyond for the mission if you consider C average (and the lowest rank for some cosmetics). An average swat team in the developers eyes wouldn't complete all objectives, wouldn't arrest everyone, and wouldn't bag all the evidence; that's for Trailers to do. If you dislike the focus on score, I'd suggest an Ironman run where you really do have to focus on staying alive, and pretty much ignore score. After all, that's as realistic a mindset you can get in a Swat setting, staying alive so you can keep serving

[BobTank63]

Exactly my thoughts. A lot of the later missions should be reworked to account for this.

[NONAME]

You know what's dumb?
A SWAT team coming to a meth house full of junkies, brutally killing every single one of them with high-caliber assault rifles and getting A+ rating from command.

It's not the objective that's dumb, it's the AI behavior that needs tuning.

[Reapums]

Originally posted by Nightman:

I understand that it's slightly unrealistic, but also consider that these game mechanics represent a scoring system not only in game, but in relation to a "realistic" SWAT deployment.

The problem I have is having cosmetics/good rankings put behind a wall of, "Arrest everyone cleanly and don't kill no one! We the good guys and don't kill no one," while also trying to convey a sense of degradation in the city and the horrors of having to make the tough choices. It's an issue that seeps into the "Commander" mode as well by punishing the player for every suspect they kill.

It feels arbitrary and condescending to tell the player they failed multiple objectives and only managed a "D" ranking when they eliminated every suspect, saved every civ, and took no casualties. I don't know what would look like a "Good" SWAT operation, but THAT sounds like a clean mission in my book.

[Reapums]

Originally posted by NONAME:

You know what's dumb?
A SWAT team coming to a meth house full of junkies, brutally killing every single one of them with high-caliber assault rifles and getting A+ rating from command.

It's not the objective that's dumb, it's the AI behavior that needs tuning.

To an extent yes, but if the devs are going to make the meth addicts act as if they are part of a Death Cult of Azathoth, then I expect a commendation for taking my team in and eliminating the threat without losing a man.

I want suspects who are able to be dealt with via none lethal measures effectively, and who naturally react to overwhelming firepower. I don't care how strong you or I feel, if a nine banger detonates in the room I'm occupying and a dozen armed men rush in leveling rifles at my head, I'm probably going to think twice before just unloading my handgun in their general direction.

[Major Fret]

These objectives would be fine if VOID had put in a remote amount of thought into how they should be accomplished.

Whenever you were required to arrest a suspect in SWAT 3, they were unarmed.

In SWAT 4, the only armed 'suspect' you had to arrest was an undercover cop who gave up upon seeing you.

There's all sorts of interesting things they could've done to make these objectives work. An example is Brixley having his gun in his office. He'd armed up once he knew SWAT was there, but if you take his office before he can reach it, you can either block him off or ambush him there, preventing him from arming up.

[SouthboundSoul]

Whats more unbelievable is the cat ear wearing pedo streamer who somehow convinced a bunch of crips to guard his kiddie porn server. That guy should have just been alone, maybe arming himself after you breach the room.

[Steinar]

Well, I find that it works well. You have to sneak around and find your targets, then make a plan for how to get them. Gas is great. Beanbags are great.

[THENETWORK]

yes I agree I almost passed Postal but even though you got all the suspects you have to run around looking for one civ and I looked for 30min before going nope and Alr+4 personally after bring order is done then you should be able to complete the mission while trailers who are apparently in the game come behind and clean up yet I've not once seem them despite it being said they come

[Reapums]

Originally posted by THENETWORK:

yes I agree I almost passed Postal but even though you got all the suspects you have to run around looking for one civ and I looked for 30min before going nope and Alr+4 personally after bring order is done then you should be able to complete the mission while trailers who are apparently in the game come behind and clean up yet I've not once seem them despite it being said they come

You can actually tell your AI compatriots to "Search and Secure," and they'll run around securing all the evidence/unsecured civs. Which is nice in Singleplayer anyways...