S rank being obtainable only with non-lethal weapons and tools is just wrong

[Rybosaur]

I am gonna say this. It's stupid. An injured active shooter should not count as just mere 5 points (the same as dead one does) while uninjured suspect as 35. It makes no sense and breaks the immersion. If a SWAT team is called to an active shooter, hostage situation, drug operation, literal terrorists, there is no way in hell they would go in with non lethal weapons, and there is no way they wouldn't shoot to disarm if the person refuses to give up and threatens a civilian or even worse, decides to shoot. So why am I penalized for shooting after I or a civilian is being shot at?

I get that you should follow RoE, and I guess it's a bit of a challenge (although disarming without killing with lethal weapons is also a big challenge) but you already have the system to work with the unauthorized use of force etc., why not make it that non-fatal injuries are as valuable as no injuries at all? The game is about realism, shooting to disarm without killing should not be punishable if it follows the RoE. Same with shooting an active shooter that is actively threatening a hostage by holding a gun to his head. Why is the perfect score calculated by you not actually doing what SWAT does and just artificially made so you have to use non lethal weapons? I feel like an officer at a calm protest... not a SWAT member in a dangerous situation.

[Dreepa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SinMxchine:

Getting S tier is not that hard guys, come on.... Blast the guy(s) with like 3 or 4 balls and tell them to get down. If not go hit them, if that doesn't your team following you will pop some shots at the enemy and tell them to get down which they will do. I have cleared the first 4 missions in S tier. That being said 5th map I had my team put a bag into a enemy that was behind a civ and the civ just got wrecked failing the S tier rank. Stack the rubber ball nades, drop all pistol ammo, heavy armor, and the same loadout on everyone. Just swap 2 members with mirrors and the rest with breach guns.

hahahahahahaha, the first 4/5 missions.
Come back when you're doing Greased Palms ;)

[Miles]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Dreepa:

Początkowo opublikowane przez SinMxchine:

Getting S tier is not that hard guys, come on.... Blast the guy(s) with like 3 or 4 balls and tell them to get down. If not go hit them, if that doesn't your team following you will pop some shots at the enemy and tell them to get down which they will do. I have cleared the first 4 missions in S tier. That being said 5th map I had my team put a bag into a enemy that was behind a civ and the civ just got wrecked failing the S tier rank. Stack the rubber ball nades, drop all pistol ammo, heavy armor, and the same loadout on everyone. Just swap 2 members with mirrors and the rest with breach guns.

hahahahahahaha, the first 4/5 missions.
Come back when you're doing Greased Palms ;)

Fr the first 4 missions are the easiest to get S rank on

[bUrnIt]

can get A+ with lethal + taser
and
Flashs, Stingers, Gas & launchers.
They all are disabling suspects, allowing you to push in and get in range to subdue with "melee bashing".
Launchers even disable suspect far away at the opposite location in large area.

I did a lot of A+ following ROE and gunning down hostile volatile suspects and even the stubborn suspects being indecisive for too long.
As long as the mission objectives are checked,
your team remained alive and no friendly-fire
and all evidences etc.. are all checked.

I think the non-lethal weapons are great VS pety crimes and juveniles with low calibre & low power guns, less dangerous or less psychopath suspect.

If only AI squad could yield taser when suspect are surrendering, I hate seeing a pacifically controlled raid, go red...

[Sloth Bro]

Początkowo opublikowane przez SinMxchine:

Getting S tier is not that hard guys, come on.... Blast the guy(s) with like 3 or 4 balls and tell them to get down. If not go hit them, if that doesn't your team following you will pop some shots at the enemy and tell them to get down which they will do. I have cleared the first 4 missions in S tier. That being said 5th map I had my team put a bag into a enemy that was behind a civ and the civ just got wrecked failing the S tier rank. Stack the rubber ball nades, drop all pistol ammo, heavy armor, and the same loadout on everyone. Just swap 2 members with mirrors and the rest with breach guns.

All of those words just to tell us that you've barely touched the game.

[Dreepa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez bUrnIt:

can get A+ with lethal + taser
and
Flashs, Stingers, Gas & launchers.
They all are disabling suspects, allowing you to push in and get in range to subdue with "melee bashing".
Launchers even disable suspect far away at the opposite location in large area.

I did a lot of A+ following ROE and gunning down hostile volatile suspects and even the stubborn suspects being indecisive for too long.
As long as the mission objectives are checked,
your team remained alive and no friendly-fire
and all evidences etc.. are all checked.

I think the non-lethal weapons are great VS pety crimes and juveniles with low calibre & low power guns, less dangerous or less psychopath suspect.

If only AI squad could yield taser when suspect are surrendering, I hate seeing a pacifically controlled raid, go red...

I really don't know why you bring up A+ rank when this thread is about S rank.

[bUrnIt]

Well what is the issue with a hard to get cosmetic unlocks ?
You can play with less stupid restrictions and enjoy more your run NOT aiming for grade S.

A+ is the BEST ... S is stupid !

So yeah go in Lethal with taser and nades and try to get the most arrested alive. That's it. Because S tiers is more like a TRAINING simulation.

And because some one said A+ was as almost impossible (with lethal) for some maps... I disagree.

Aiming for A+ can also bring S grade if lucky, and if the map has low number of suspects. (lethal ++ taser ++ nades).

[Dreepa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez bUrnIt:

Well what is the issue with a hard to get cosmetic unlocks ?
You can play with less stupid restrictions and enjoy more your run NOT aiming for grade S.

A+ is the BEST ... S is stupid !

So yeah go in Lethal with taser and nades and try to get the most arrested alive. That's it. Because S tiers is more like a TRAINING simulation.

And because some one said A+ was as almost impossible (with lethal) for some maps... I disagree.

Aiming for A+ can also bring S grade if lucky, and if the map has low number of suspects. (lethal ++ taser ++ nades).

Hehe, I agree.

S stands for Stupid. Love it.

S rank is more like a "puzzle game" imho. I only do it, because VOID took away all game modes that I enjoyed playing and the also took away the maps that I regularily played...
I am pretty pissed at them for that.

Anyway, that is why I do S-Rank. Cause there isn't really much else to do after you played the campaign once.

[Jamesinator]

most of the time in real life SWAT doesn't get S rank lol. S rank is PERFECT mission. S rank exsists in real life but SWAT just doesn't usually worry about it as much as RoN players.

[TardWrangler]

S rank would be balanced if you couldnt roll up on a mission with 37 gas grenades hanging off your vest

[🆂🆈🅽🅿🅰🆃🅷🆈]

Ok as someone who has legitimately S the entire game....it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid.

It's as "gamey" as it comes. it's not about adaption, good tactics, or great intuition.

It's doing the same exact thing over again over again until you hit the jackpot.

Keep in mind this took me OVER 120 HOURS!!!!!.....yeah that's reasonable...

Początkowo opublikowane przez 𝒞𝒶𝓈𝓊𝒶𝓁 Sinner:

A challenge is a challenge

I fail to see how a challenge is about pulling slots....A challenge is a test of my skill...that is not a test of my skill it's a test of my endurance and mental fortitude...

Essentially torture training...

[Vanilla Gorilla]

It's a game, it's supposed to be the most difficult task that earns the S. Nothing about this game is realistic because realism is boring because everyone is worried about this little thing called staying alive. The AI is cancer (tracking you through walls, shooting 2 pixels of your nose through 1 cm crack in a wall 20 meters away, etc) but the nonlethal requirement for S is fine IMO.

[🆂🆈🅽🅿🅰🆃🅷🆈]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Vanilla Gorilla:

It's a game, it's supposed to be the most difficult task that earns the S. Nothing about this game is realistic because realism is boring because everyone is worried about this little thing called staying alive. The AI is cancer (tracking you through walls, shooting 2 pixels of your nose through 1 cm crack in a wall 20 meters away, etc) but the nonlethal requirement for S is fine IMO.

I think that's only partially the problem though...

having them be less lethal just makes it so they are more time consuming to deal with...that's really it. It's annoying, not challenging.

That's NOT what should make a S rank...kinda.

It really should be about tactics, deescalation (LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN POLICE WORK...THAT IS NO WHERE TO BE SEEN!?!?!...why void?) as well professionalism.

Each scenario needs unique AI that react to stress differently, let alone authority, as well as those around them. The bolton security is going to react differently to the party guests than the thugs at the gas station.

Understanding that and then taking them in alive with very clean use of that knowledge is what should be the defining of an S. Not "u shoot gud betta, hehe lol." Which is what it will always be in it's current state no matter how much you address it

I'll be frank...the SWAT AI was dumb focus...it reallllly should of been the suspects and civilian AI's first. That would of at least worked in both multiplayer and single player. Now the multiplayer people really are just playing the exact same game with some new levels...

that's called getting bang for your buck

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Początkowo opublikowane przez 🆂🆈🅽🅿🅰🆃🅷🆈:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Vanilla Gorilla:

It's a game, it's supposed to be the most difficult task that earns the S. Nothing about this game is realistic because realism is boring because everyone is worried about this little thing called staying alive. The AI is cancer (tracking you through walls, shooting 2 pixels of your nose through 1 cm crack in a wall 20 meters away, etc) but the nonlethal requirement for S is fine IMO.

I think that's only partially the problem though...

having them be less lethal just makes it so they are more time consuming to deal with...that's really it. It's annoying, not challenging.

That's NOT what should make a S rank...kinda.

It really should be about tactics, deescalation (LITERALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN POLICE WORK...THAT IS NO WHERE TO BE SEEN!?!?!...why void?) as well professionalism.

Each scenario needs unique AI that react to stress differently, let alone authority, as well as those around them. The bolton security is going to react differently to the party guests than the thugs at the gas station.

Understanding that and then taking them in alive with very clean use of that knowledge is what should be the defining of an S. Not "u shoot gud betta, hehe lol." Which is what it will always be in it's current state no matter how much you address it

I'll be frank...the SWAT AI was dumb focus...it reallllly should of been the suspects and civilian AI's first. That would of at least worked in both multiplayer and single player. Now the multiplayer people really are just playing the exact same game with some new levels...

that's called getting bang for your buck

That's what I am saying with the realism comment, deescalation is boring. Like the moderator said earlier in the thread if this was realistic as a SWAT officer you would be sitting outside the location behind cover watching exits for half a day or more. That's boring, not very many will be interested in that. People want some actions, that's the point. The S rank allows for it be more challenging because it's a handicap and you have to play slower than rolling with a Benelli M4 with buckshot removing limbs and doing 180 no scopes. I understand the frustration but this is the problem with "sim" games, it's a balance for playability and "realism". Do they want to sell hundreds of thousands of copies or tens of thousands of copies, that's what they're working on.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

It is dumb that you have to arrest some suspects on maps like Hokan to get an A.

[🆂🆈🅽🅿🅰🆃🅷🆈]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Vanilla Gorilla:

That's what I am saying with the realism comment, deescalation is boring. Like the moderator said earlier in the thread if this was realistic as a SWAT officer you would be sitting outside the location behind cover watching exits for half a day or more. That's boring, not very many will be interested in that. People want some actions, that's the point. The S rank allows for it be more challenging because it's a handicap and you have to play slower than rolling with a Benelli M4 with buckshot removing limbs and doing 180 no scopes. I understand the frustration but this is the problem with "sim" games, it's a balance for playability and "realism". Do they want to sell hundreds of thousands of copies or tens of thousands of copies, that's what they're working on.

How is shooting everyone and yelling all the time more interesting than a COD campaign?

The uniqueness of a cop scenario is the difference between trying to end lives like a solider, and cop who's meant to protect them.

I don't need to stand out the there for hours...why would I? the point is things are getting out of hand that's why we get the call to go in.

The intensity ISN'T dropping bodies....it's bringing order to chaos, a bunch of people high strung and on a short fuse...THAT'S what the game needs....not a mil sim with "HA HA you shot first point lost lol"

That's just a mil sim with annoying "gotcha" mechanics.

Here's a scenario that is interesting that can happen in the gas station for example.

1. Lets say I find a suspect in the corner breaking down with a gun in his hand in the fidel position.
   
2. he keeps almost pointing it, but pulling back.
   
3. Another guy bust's in a just goes for the kill and we take him down.
   
4. The guy is stunned knowing he could die, and I ask him nicely to drop the gun.
   
5. After cuffing him he mummers "he-he just killed him man...th-It was just the money"

That is a scenario of deescalation, we didn't shot him until he became a threat, which he never did. We held our ground. and no one can tell me that THAT, wasn't more interesting of an interaction than this entire game. It's raw and heavy yet still has stress to it, one misstep or jumpy action and we messed up, ending a kids life that just went further than they we're willing to take it. instead, we stayed firmed and controlled. Deescalating a bad situation. Add in the non-lethal part and now it just comes full circle.

This is a first level (as this is the first mission) type scenario teaching you patience is rewarded, later missions will require much more thought...

THAT's the cop game that becomes swat 5...that's what a modern game can do that isn't happening.

instead we got a COD game with "hehe you fell for my trap card"....like come on?