Main shotguns still make no sence.

[Alla Ya'fbar]

Hi, it's me, dude who wants have option to breaching doors with main shotgun.
In previos post we have a hot discussions about sence breach doors with buck-shots, uuh.
But devs hear part about *breach the door with main shotgun*, kinda, and give mains slugs, Yeey!.. exept we have no mag-shotguns nor mechanic to change round tipe in bullet-chamber directly... and exept main's slug-shot didn't breach door-lock...
Sounds like missed feature, hope see that in next\second big update.

P.S.: If main shotguns slug-shot about some armored hostiles, still make low sence, you probably shot him down before slugs come to chamber.
And also doesn't metter. I still talking about: main shotguns can't breach - make they useless.

[Kay]

Making all shotguns able to breach doors would make the breaching shotgun useless, and give shotguns something no other primary weapon class has (the ability to be used as a breaching tool) which isn't necessary.

Slugs aren't for breaching doors either, they're for extending the range your shotgun can accurately hit targets, or removing the spread so you don't accidentally hit civilians.

Shotguns not being able to breach doors doesn't make them useless in the slightest, they're powerful weapons with spread increasing your chance to hit targets you don't have time to carefully aim at, or would've slightly missed with other firearms.

[Darcy]

I'd argue that adding breach rounds to normal shotguns should be a thing, and breach shotguns should be removed

[Drakk]

I agree with you about having multiple ammo types on shotguns similar to FMJ/JHP game mechanic on brass cartridges guns. That would be great to have :D

However I would like to correct something : Slugs are different than Breaching cartridges.
A Slug is a one piece lead bullet designed to deliver a huge amount of stopping power while still being able to penetrate soft or mildly hard target (for harder materials, you need some jacketed ammo).
A breaching load is compacted metal powder wad which disappear to thin air after delivering a strong pushing force, it's not made to penetrate anything, not even flesh.

Blasting a door's hinge with a lead slug would be very dangerous as shrapnels could fly back at you or your mates. Breaching wads simply goes to dust after impact (which also means you can't use them past 2 meters)

[Graywolf364]

I was going to write up a post about ways to improve select slugs.

I can't speak for other countries but in the United States, any agency that does ballistic breaching uses specialty breaching rounds. They are design have a very low chance of potentially hurting someone on the other side of the door. And they are better at breaching doors than trying to do the same with the slug or buck. Breaching rounds can still kill when fired directly at someone (a subject that does come up in breaching circles in case one has to defend themselves whilst breaching) but they have a very limited range.

I know there are several agencies that run dedicated breaching shotguns. For safety reasons the shotguns won't be used with buckshot or slugs. The LEO with it will primarily be running a long gun and the shotgun is just an entry tool. Which is what we have in game now.

There are also some agencies that have their ballistic breaches run full-sized shotguns as their primary weapon. They are outfitted like fighting shotguns but will still have the a beaching barrel and muzzle device. They will mostly run beaching rounds but may have some slugs or buck on a caddy for defense. 1301 is very popular in this role because it can reliably cycle breaching rounds which is pretty unusual for a semi-automatic shotgun. This is the model that the OP seams to be advocating for.

Ever agency I've ever worked with has had at least one magazine fed shotgun in inventory, but I've never worked with an agency who's actually run them in the field. I'm sure there is an agency somewhere that uses magazine fed shotguns but they would be the exception not the rule.

[Drakk]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

I know there are several agencies that run dedicated breaching shotguns. For safety reasons the shotguns won't be used with buckshot or slugs. The LEO with it will primarily be running a long gun and the shotgun is just an entry tool. Which is what we have in game now.

This ! Thank you for your comment, I completely forgot about that simple rule IRL units around the world follow. Safety first : don't mix weapons and tools. Breaching rounds with the breachings stubby, lethal rounds with the regular shotgun.

[Graywolf364]

Moving on to selective slug. This is incredibly versatile fighting shotgun technique that you very rarely if ever see represented in games. This is a technique that allows you to rapidly switch from buckshot to a slug or other specialty round. You load a slug into the tube, work the pump or the bolt to clear the buckshot currently in the chamber and now you have a slug ready to go.

One of the really cool things about the ammo switching system is run can do this in game! But as the OP mentions it's a bit clumsy.

To the best of my knowledge, we don't have a means in game to work the bolt or pump to clear a shotgun's chamber. The only way to empty the chamber is to fire. Actually, shotguns are in an usual configuration when we start missions, they are loaded to capacity with live shells in the chamber, lifter and tube. You don't have a space to load in a selective slug like if the shotgun just came out of cruiser ready. Which means you have to fire the shotgun at least once to have the capacity to load in that next slug then fire a second time to get it to the chamber.

[Alla Ya'fbar]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Moving on to selective slug. This is incredibly versatile fighting shotgun technique that you very rarely if ever see represented in games. This is a technique that allows you to rapidly switch from buckshot to a slug or other specialty round. You load a slug into the tube, work the pump or the bolt to clear the buckshot currently in the chamber and now you have a slug ready to go.

Yeah. Or just unload chamber, and instead pull-back, load slug-shot into chamber.
Problem is, we do not have such options in the game.

[Graywolf364]

Originally posted by Drakk:

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

I know there are several agencies that run dedicated breaching shotguns. For safety reasons the shotguns won't be used with buckshot or slugs. The LEO with it will primarily be running a long gun and the shotgun is just an entry tool. Which is what we have in game now.

This ! Thank you for your comment, I completely forgot about that simple rule IRL units around the world follow. Safety first : don't mix weapons and tools. Breaching rounds with the breachings stubby, lethal rounds with the regular shotgun.

Same thing bean bag shotguns. They are regular shotguns. But for safety they are only run in dedicated shotguns with specialty furniture identifying them as bean bag shotguns. Similar situation with the short-lived taser shotgun. The shotgun that it's designed to go with was modified so that could only run the taser shells and could not feed live shells. My understanding is that this was a late development done as a specific request from agencies.

[Cryptic]

buckshot or even slugs blow doors apart. i know because ive seen it at a range i go to.

[Drakk]

Originally posted by Corrosion:

buckshot or even slugs blow doors apart. i know because ive seen it at a range i go to.

Of course they can blow doors, but they are not intended for that use and can be dangerous for the operators breaching as well as people behind the said doors.

[Cryptic]

Originally posted by Drakk:

Originally posted by Corrosion:

buckshot or even slugs blow doors apart. i know because ive seen it at a range i go to.

Of course they can blow doors, but they are not intended for that use and can be dangerous for the operators breaching as well as people behind the said doors.

god forbid i get a splinter. i'll stand back. anything we use is dangerous to both of us. should we have no stingers by that logic?

try again

[Alla Ya'fbar]

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

I know there are several agencies that run dedicated breaching shotguns. For safety reasons the shotguns won't be used with buckshot or slugs. The LEO with it will primarily be running a long gun and the shotgun is just an entry tool. Which is what we have in game now.

Some agencies. And some agencies instead run with them second main gun, running just round and load them into chamber 1 at a time.

[Alla Ya'fbar]

Originally posted by Corrosion:

Originally posted by Drakk:

Of course they can blow doors, but they are not intended for that use and can be dangerous for the operators breaching as well as people behind the said doors.

god forbid i get a splinter. i'll stand back. anything we use is dangerous to both of us. should we have no stingers by that logic?

try again

It not all about hostiles. with blinde fire you can get hostages dead. Not just injured like with stingers

[Graywolf364]

Originally posted by Crowly:

Originally posted by Graywolf364:

Moving on to selective slug. This is incredibly versatile fighting shotgun technique that you very rarely if ever see represented in games. This is a technique that allows you to rapidly switch from buckshot to a slug or other specialty round. You load a slug into the tube, work the pump or the bolt to clear the buckshot currently in the chamber and now you have a slug ready to go.

Yeah. Or just unload chamber, and instead pull-back, load slug-shot into chamber.
Problem is, we do not have such options in the game.

^That's mostly a semi-automatic shotgun thing.

On the 1301 for example the bolt works independently from the lifter. You can manipulate the bolt however you want, but a shell won't be loaded onto the lifter until the trigger is pulled or the lifter tab is pressed. Which makes it a pretty intuitive platform for selective slug because you just pull back and hold the bolt, the shell that was currently in the chamber gets easily extracted and you can put your slug directly into the chamber and have it ready to go immediately. I think the M4 Super 90 has a similar select slug manipulation but I'm not familiar with its manual of arms.

I do agree that it is disappointing that we don't have any of those options in game currently. Because out of all the weapon systems in the game, shotguns are the ones that benefit the most from the ammo switching system. Having the shotgun start out down one shell and the ability to have either the game automatically clear the chamber or allowing the players to do it manually would drastically open up possibilities. The select ammo on the other platforms is mostly a game gimmick.

[Drakk]

Originally posted by Corrosion:

Originally posted by Drakk:

Of course they can blow doors, but they are not intended for that use and can be dangerous for the operators breaching as well as people behind the said doors.

god forbid i get a splinter. i'll stand back. anything we use is dangerous to both of us. should we have no stingers by that logic?

try again

You're risking way more than a wood splinter. There is a reason Breaching loads were invented and are used by professionnals.
In a survival situation where you don't have the choice and need to breach a door with buckshot, yeah ♥♥♥♥ it, do what you have to do to survive.
In police/military operation with many colleagues around the door and potential civilians inside a room or building, you don't and you use specifically made cartridges. Safety first.
A bouncing pellet going through an arm, leg or eye means two or three operators out of business (the wounded one and the other to carry him out of danger) which could seriously distrub the mission plan. Life ain't a game, professionnals act fast but act smart.

Stingers are rubber projectiles, similar to self defense cartridges, apart from putting someone's eye out (exluding operators as they wear eye protection), not much danger to civillians.

Can't breach a door hinge or lock by standing back, gotta be close to be effective, and in real operations, you don't want to need a second shot to successfully breach.