Drop steel armor and stab vest please!

[LVS]

Practically no law enforcement nor military use steel plates for body armor and I don't know any SWAT runs stab vest.

Add polyethylene/UHMWPE to replace steel as an material option instead and change stab vest to soft ballistic vest, make ceramic the most protective, then polyethylene, and kevlar the least protective for simplistic implementation, also the 3 body armors should be soft ballistic vest(light), plate carrier(medium) and heavy armor.

For more realism one can reference the new or old US NIJ/national institute of justice body armor performance standards as guideline. Old strandard rates level II, level IIIA for handgun and shotgun, level III and level IV for rifle threats, New strandard rates HandGun1(.357) and HandGun2(.44) with Rifle 1(7.62 m80), Rifle 2(5.56 m855) and Rifle 3(30-06 armor piercing).

PS If dev can let us choose different materials for heavy armor's ballistic collar, deltoid protector and groin protector it will be sweet!

[LVS]

Franz původně napsal:

LVS původně napsal:

Tarkov is great but also utter ♥♥♥♥(coming from someone who played since alpha till last week), the guns and pvp are great but the sheer amout of server issues, desync and hack can make it unplayable.

Isn't Tarkov just an other DayZ ? I lack to see the difference.

I would say quite different, also the hack can be 100 times worse.

[LVS]

Franz původně napsal:

LVS původně napsal:

Practically no law enforcement nor military use steel plates for body armor and I don't know any SWAT runs stab vest.

Add polyethylene/UHMWPE to replace steel as an material option instead and change stab vest to soft ballistic vest, make ceramic the most protective, then polyethylene, and kevlar the least protective for simplistic implementation, also the 3 body armors should be soft ballistic vest(light), plate carrier(medium) and heavy armor.

For more realism one can reference the new or old US NIJ/national institute of justice body armor performance standards as guideline. Old strandard rates level II, level IIIA for handgun and shotgun, level III and level IV for rifle threats, New strandard rates HandGun1(.357) and HandGun2(.44) with Rifle 1(7.62 m80), Rifle 2(5.56 m855) and Rifle 3(30-06 armor piercing).

PS If dev can let us choose different materials for heavy armor's ballistic collar, deltoid protector and groin protector it will be sweet!

Or:

Leave the choice to the player since this isn't a feature you visually see in-game, it isn't affecting you as a player at all.

That being said, steel plates are still in use.

You know swat that use steel plates?

[Graywolf364]

For certain types of call-outs, you might see the first guy in the stack with what some guys call an 'entry vest' pretty similar to the heavy option that's currently in game. But it's less of people swapping to different plates with more multi-hit survivability and more of using a setup with more coverage.

Remember, agencies don't pay commercial prices. If a small agency needs to defend against rifle threats they will either get decent quality plates donated to them by some friendly organization or purchase at a price that I would strongly imagine rivals that of steel. It is entirely possible that you might see a personal purchase but I don't really see that going anywhere if the officer or deputy actually has to wear it.

Extremely minor nitpick here, but kevlar soft armor is almost never stab or slash resistant. Stab is actually surprisingly hard to achieve because of the amount pressure cutting through the fabric. It's a very different mechanism than a bullet crushing through. Slash is easier but remember we're talking about what is in basic terms just multiple layers of fabric on top of each other. So there are slash and stab resistant Kevlar soft armor but they usually have some sort of backer or insert between the layers to achieve the sharps resistance. But I'm sure there are people who refer to their stab vest as Kevlar much as there are people who refer to any kind of lid as a Kevlar.

[Graywolf364]

Franz původně napsal:

LVS původně napsal:

You know swat that use steel plates?

As steel armour is a low budget solution offering protection, this is a thing with smaller departements in the US and still a thing with some units here in my country.

Don't underestimate steel, as said before, it does better than kevlar IF the right thickness is given.

I'm sincerely curious, where have you heard of current US agencies running steel? I'm not doubting you, the US is a big place with so many law enforcement agencies that no one has actually been able to count them all so there is a wide variety of things that can happen. It's not something I've ever come across, but the agencies I've worked with tend to be pretty high speed.

I've been racking my brain and I do recall some SWAT guys in the 90s and early 2000s saying that they run steel face masks for high risk search warrants. I don't think the masks were actually made out of steel but for a lot of people they were close enough. And I absolutely could see guys running steel plates in the 90s and early 2000s too.

[Graywolf364]

^I haven't seen your linked video so it may be amazing, but I would caution about getting armor information from gun YouTube. There are tons of factors that determine armor performance that the NIJ ratings don't elaborate on. Not all plates in the same ratings range are made equally. Depending on your individual needs, your best course of action may not be to move to a higher level of protection but get a different type of plate within the same level. It's also worth noting that while many plates are tested to the NIJ standard in-house or by a third party lab, only a few of them are NIJ certified. Moreover, some plates may be designed to withstand a special threat. So they may be only rated at a specific level but maybe designed to counter a very specific round or rounds that are above that current level but still not provide the needed level of protection to bump up to the next level. You also have to consider whether or not the plate is standalone. Some plates need to be used in conjunction with a soft armor backer. Some are even designed to be stacked. Idiots shooting at a plate they just bought off the internet often can't fully explain the nuance and complexity of the issue.

I mean no personal disrespect. Just wish to pass on a learning opportunity.

[Graywolf364]

Franz původně napsal:

McDewgle původně napsal:

@Graywolf364, no disrespect taken. I have no horse in this race as I'm not a member of law enforcement nor do I own any armor or have plans to buy any armor in the near future.

I just did a cursory 5 minutes of searching around on google to see if the statement regarding multiple hits on ceramic body armor was true or not. And after watching a video of a Spartan ceramic vest stop
4/4 5.56x45 mm rounds
5/5 7.62x51mm rounds
1/2 .300 Winchester magnum rounds

I'm leaning towards the idea that they can in fact take multiple hits?

They can, they are just known to do so very well unlike kevlar or steel.

Simple.

If you ask me, I pick kevlar over any other material if I would have to clear rooms with possibly armed suspects.

I mean, there is a reason the military uses kevlar.

Your mistaken. The SAPI and ESAPI plates are not Kevlar. For most armor purposes Kevlar is a fabric, in very basic terms it's a pile of fabric crisscrossed on top of each other with the thickness of the pile determining the protection level. This is why this type of armor is called soft armor because it moves like very thick fabric. Where things get a bit more confusing is there is armor that has a hardened shell and then has fabric layers of Kevlar beneath it. So hard armor Kevlar does exist and it's well known for being used in helmets.

For military users who still have interceptor vests the carrier itself is made out of a few layers of Kevlar which acts as a little bit of added protection from some low power pistol rounds and shrapnel and serves as an backer to the ESAPI plates. I think it goes without saying that the IOV is crazy heavy and most commercial plate carriers are made out of nylon. Which does provide a teeny amount of shrapnel protection but it's not soft armor. It's worth noting that the replacements for the interceptor ditched a lot of the integrated soft armor and more closely resemble your standard commercial plate carrier. They still have have pouches for soft armor and can be scaled up to include additional soft armor protection but in the lightest configuration they're nylon plate carriers with ESAPIs.

[Graywolf364]

Just saying that although strictly speaking the military does use Kevlar, in practical terms it does not use Kevlar in the way your thinking. Because at the end of the day Kevlar is just a very strong fabric.

[Graywolf364]

As someone who isn't originally from the US, was born in Europe, lived in South America, and worked and studied in Asia, I am aware that there are other nations beyond the United States. I've worked with non-US military and law enforcement but it's been several years. But you are correct, I was speaking from a US centric viewpoint because Ready or Not takes place in a fictional United States depicting fictional US police. So when most users bring up the military in comparison to things in Ready or Not, my first assumption is US military. In retrospect I should have more explicitly clarified that. I appreciate you pointing it out. You were right to.

That said, MOBAST is strongly comparable with contemporary armor systems within the US military. In that it's a scalable nylon plate carrier. I don't know where the plates are sourced from, a lot of NATO allies source equipment from US companies with their own specifications. This extends to armor and is most notable when it comes to helmets. If you look at military's and even third-party belligerence around the world you'll find that while there is a lot of variation in PPE, by and large the general trends and designs are very similar across the world for line infantry. They just are getting design ideas and sourcing armor from different locations. Obviously the testing and certification process will differ from Nation to Nation. But the and result is going to be something that resembles a scalable nylon plate carriers with lightweight composite plates. Rear echelon troops, if they get armor may end up getting stuff that is almost like the old flak jacket if they are issued armor. And poorer Nations that work in jungles and deserts may choose to go slick and just run chest rigs. But the plate carrier with composite plates trend is still pretty consistent across the board.

Not trying to show anyone up or anything, just attempting to better illuminate a somewhat opaque and complex subject.

[Graywolf364]

Also worth remembering that
at least in the United States, Kevlar can be used as a generic term for any armor. Which can lead to some observers drawing incorrect conclusions. It's also important to acknowledge that most police and military aren't gear nerds. They know their issue kit works but they don't know what it's called or how it works or what it's made out of. The training director of a influential agency in my region once told me 10% of his cops hate guns, don't know a thing about them beyond what is needed to qualify, 10% love them and soak up every detail, and the rest are somewhere in the middle. One of my friends is on a busy and famous county SWAT team, he just uses what ever plate or vest gets hand to him and any info about it just goes right over his head. But I have another on a neighboring county team who could break down every little detail if you asked.

Not super relevant but just food for thought.

[macdaddymario]

I demand the steel plates remain until I can use the damn M14, and it doesn't take 4 shots to down a suspect with no armor when using the mod to unlock the gun.

Once I get realistic 308 damage, and the ability to use the M14 like they showed during the initial reveal of the game, then we can start to talk about other things that have recently been added getting changed.

[LVS]

Franz původně napsal:

LVS původně napsal:

It could be interesting but how about the poly plates that can eat up dozens of rifle rounds and god knows how many pistol rounds while weight practically nothing? other issues aside, steel is just too heavy.

I want to participate in this real life talk as well.

Steel plates are superior to kevlar IF the right thickness is given.
Ceramic plates are nice in many aspects but have the huge disadvantage of shattering after already one hit, means the protection isn't given anymore as it should be.

This is why Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene is getting more and more popular as it is super light and can eat up a dozens of bullets.

Steel armour plates make sense for the pointman, who is first in line and might carry a shield as well, the one guy that eats up bullets for breakfast.

That being said, steel also does a great job against knife attacks, for obvious reasons.

By all means hop right in.
I don't know anyone in LE/MIL these days that will use rifle rated steel plates for body armor let alone shield bearers, off the top of my head a rifle rated level III shield is probably around 10kg/22lbs, with level IV 20kg/44lbs and most of them will need dedicated harnesses and some got wheels, shield weight aside, would anyone really hual 8kg/17lbs for just front&back steel plates to stop basic rifle rounds when you can stop the same threat with poly plates that are usually less then 3kg/almost 7lbs when their life is on the line? ceramic plates that can stop even higher threats are around 4.5kg/10lbs, if you can't move effectively you can't fight effectively.

As for steel plates for knives, they can work well but again heavy unless you are talking about pistol rated steel plates. I was in china years ago and even some of their auxiliary police, which don't deal with any gun violence only occasional knife crimes, are trying to ditch steel plates favouring their own domestically produced composite plates, steel is simply too heavy, even correctional don't use steel for body armor anymore.

[LVS]

Franz původně napsal:

LVS původně napsal:

You know swat that use steel plates?

As steel armour is a low budget solution offering protection, this is a thing with smaller departements in the US and still a thing with some units here in my country.

Don't underestimate steel, as said before, it does better than kevlar IF the right thickness is given.

I don't know any us swat that run steel, in fact I don't know any swat that run steel anywhere in the world these days, the percentage is probably so miniscule it's dismissible.

It's not really underestimation, steel plates are a thing of the past, no swat will run them today if they have a choice, even swat in most poorer countries don't run them.

[LVS]

McDewgle původně napsal:

Also @OP, I forwarded your suggestion to the Ready or Not Discord server suggestion channel

Appreciate it brother :)

[LVS]

McDewgle původně napsal:

Franz původně napsal:

his entire thread is hot garbage in the first place. Someone dislikes that there are steel armour plates in-game and wants them removed. How ridiculous is that.

Well that's just disingenuous and dismissive of constructive feedback. I thought we talked about not gate-keeping others from giving their opinions?

Demeanor aside, by him saying that steel armor plates make sense for pointman and shield bearer and he pick kevlar over any other material to clear rooms with possibly armed suspects, I believe anyone that were in the military, law enforcement or trained civilian anywhere in the world will just dismiss him as a complete layman, or worse, a troll.

[LVS]

Graywolf364 původně napsal:

Also worth remembering that
at least in the United States, Kevlar can be used as a generic term for any armor. Which can lead to some observers drawing incorrect conclusions. It's also important to acknowledge that most police and military aren't gear nerds. They know their issue kit works but they don't know what it's called or how it works or what it's made out of. The training director of a influential agency in my region once told me 10% of his cops hate guns, don't know a thing about them beyond what is needed to qualify, 10% love them and soak up every detail, and the rest are somewhere in the middle. One of my friends is on a busy and famous county SWAT team, he just uses what ever plate or vest gets hand to him and any info about it just goes right over his head. But I have another on a neighboring county team who could break down every little detail if you asked.

Not super relevant but just food for thought.

Most of my comrades in the army don't know jack and not at all interested in gear, but you always get that guy who calling him a gear ♥♥♥♥♥ will be an understatement too.

Steel aside, what do you think about featuring soft rifle armor? weight is there but you can maximize that coverage some will want.