Weapon damage

[Butt Spenza]

Hey guys,

so I feel that the damage in the game seems to be kinda random.
I oneshotted a suspect with one hit to the thigh from the 57 USG pistol once.
I also hit an unarmored suspect with a SA-58 7,62 mm rifle right into the chest and she lived. Instantly dropped her weapon and surrenderd though, but she lived.
In both cases the hits were double-checked by the blood on the suspects bodies, so that's definitely correct.

Also I find it kinda hard to guess a weapons damage overall as there are no kind of stats, only very superficial descriptions like "impressive muzzle velocity" (SR-16) or "hard punch" (M45A1).
So is it more the gameplay-version: UMP-45 has slowest RoF, so the best damage and penetration:
Or the realistic version: UMP-45 has slowest RoF and weakest penetration, but biggest punch.

Another example are the .45 pistols compared to the 5.7 mm 57 USG.
Gameplay version: Adding a suppressor would lower both weapons damage and penetration capabilities for around the same relative amount.
Realistic version: Adding a suppressor to a .45 would virtually not affect its performance as it's subsonic (250 m/s) anyway.
Adding a suppressor to the 5.7 mm however would completely ruin it as it relies heavily on velocity (500 m/s) for its penetration capabilities.

Are there any reliable sources right now? Like did someone make the effort to test it in the lobby with a friend or found weapon data it in the game files or something?

Thanks!

[A Lonely Prince]

lowering damage by adding a suppressor is the most brain-dead thing I've heard on here.

Not only would a suppressor if it was realistic in a game sense do more damage but also higher penetration.

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

[Harris]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

It is slightly more complicated than that, but in general it's safe to say a suppressor does not really decrease (or increase) velocity by much. Granted, a suppressed shot is still quite noisy. An exception would be the weapons like VSS, designed to be virtually silent, but paying for that with lower velocity.

That being said, I'm not sure there's a point running a suppressor atm, since one shot from a suspect (or your teammate for that matter) and everyone knows you're there.

[Radegast]

Silencers would need special ammo,whitch games simulates by lowering damadge. Its ok then (they react to sound and gas, not bullet and its energy/speed).

I personaly think, that new games should start with counting the lenght and weight the weapons. Each forgripe, scope weights something and handling is difficult. Not saying how assault rifles are worthless in CQBs, when you entering room, checking suspects....

personal experience from army service

[m00hk00h]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

A suppressor in its simplest form is just an empty can that provides the hot, expanding gas with a space to expand into, so it doesn't go "bang" when it leaves the barrel. There is no barrel in there.
And even if there were it would be pointless because the moment you start venting gas into the suppressor you stop accelerating the bullet.

All of that is pretty pointless if you're using high powered supersonic ammunition that will create a sonic boom (a loud snap) so...if you want to be truly silent you need to step down to subsonic ammo which has less penetration capabilities.
The MP5SD, which has an integrated silencer, even has a vent hole in the barrel that prevents any bullets from reaching supersonic speeds, effectively making any powder load subsonic.

But even if you don't downgrade your ammo, a modern "can" with baffles will effectively reduce the "bang" and concussion that is usually associated with firing a gun by 10 to 20dB - it will still be loud but a lore more bearable.

[RedLizard]

Yeah a supressor is not meant to really conceal the gunshot, unless you are using special ammo, or even better a special "quiet" gun. Instead, it is supposed to either make the gunshots less deafening and more comfortable for the operator, especialy indoors, or to better conceal the shooter. You will still know you're being shot at, you will just have hard time telling from where.

The latter naturally applies to longer-range military settings, not CQB SWAT operations we have in game.

[Butt Spenza]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

lowering damage by adding a suppressor is the most brain-dead thing I've heard on here.

Not only would a suppressor if it was realistic in a game sense do more damage but also higher penetration.

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

A suppressor is not a barrel and does also not work that way.
Higher velocity would also be pointless as suppressors are used with subsonic ammunition.

But back to topic:
What is your personal experience or do you know any data?

[A Lonely Prince]

Originally posted by Butt Spenza:

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

lowering damage by adding a suppressor is the most brain-dead thing I've heard on here.

Not only would a suppressor if it was realistic in a game sense do more damage but also higher penetration.

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

A suppressor is not a barrel and does also not work that way.
Higher velocity would also be pointless as suppressors are used with subsonic ammunition.

But back to topic:
What is your personal experience or do you know any data?

It still shouldn't lower damage. A bullet is a bullet. If it goes slightly slower or faster doesn't matter if it's not put up against armored suspects. Although, the faster a bullet is the better it is at penetrating which then would do less damage since it's zipping right through the unarmored suspect. But that wouldn't be noticeable if it were a 9mm subsonic or regular, more as in bigger calibers. In other cases, if you'd use slower ammo it would do more damage TECHNICALLY SPEAKING. Then there's the entire theme of speciality ammo such as AP, HP etc.

This is all way too complex to all be done, it's possible but I doubt that Void will want to make this into a Swat Tarkov. (i'd play the ♥♥♥♥ out of it tho)

I'd love to see some more specialized ammo for different kind of suspects you have to deal with. Also changing the armor a bit so it actually does something and you don't die from a 9x18 to the chest....

[Butt Spenza]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

Originally posted by Butt Spenza:

A suppressor is not a barrel and does also not work that way.
Higher velocity would also be pointless as suppressors are used with subsonic ammunition.

But back to topic:
What is your personal experience or do you know any data?

It still shouldn't lower damage. A bullet is a bullet. If it goes slightly slower or faster doesn't matter if it's not put up against armored suspects. Although, the faster a bullet is the better it is at penetrating which then would do less damage since it's zipping right through the unarmored suspect. But that wouldn't be noticeable if it were a 9mm subsonic or regular, more as in bigger calibers. In other cases, if you'd use slower ammo it would do more damage TECHNICALLY SPEAKING. Then there's the entire theme of speciality ammo such as AP, HP etc.

This is all way too complex to all be done, it's possible but I doubt that Void will want to make this into a Swat Tarkov. (i'd play the ♥♥♥♥ out of it tho)

I'd love to see some more specialized ammo for different kind of suspects you have to deal with. Also changing the armor a bit so it actually does something and you don't die from a 9x18 to the chest....

A slower bullet has less kinetic energy, giving it less penetration and less overall damage potential. Speed is literally the only variable that has an influence on penetration and damage when firing two same projectiles.
A fast bullet that's "zipping" through a body still does more damage than a slow bullet because it a) penetrates deeper which does more overall damage to the body and hence has a higher chance of hitting a vital organ and b) faster bullets create bigger wound channels than slower bullets of the same type.
As SWAT 4 had FMJ and JHP ammo types for each firearm (Elite forces added SP and AP ammo types) and this is supposed to be a SWAT 4 remake I'm pretty sure they'll add ammo types.

Damage and armor are just placeholders atm, at least that's what I hope.
Right now a SWAT officer in the lobby training room dies after five hits from the 7.62x51 mm rifle to the chest
He also dies from only four 5.56 mm hits from the M4 to the chest (same spot).
Armor is at least halfway modeled as some calibers go through and make you bleed before destroying the armor, while other calibers do no damage at all when hitting intact armor.

This is still Off-Topic though.

[Xell the Fallen Angel]

5 shots in the chest with a .300 still living, one shot with the 5.7 in the hand of a civillian = instant kill.

[mjbn77]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

lowering damage by adding a suppressor is the most brain-dead thing I've heard on here.

Not only would a suppressor if it was realistic in a game sense do more damage but also higher penetration.

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

Sorry, but you are very wrong......in real life Suppressor = same barrel length = slower velocity through gas/air disturbance in suppressor (and also sometimes do to heavier slower subsonic bullets) = slower velocity = less penetration (damage is also the wrong work, because damage depends on bullet used JHP vs FMJ), but all at lower but not silent noise levels

A suppressor is slowing down projectiles and makes them less lethal (but only by a tiny portion). Also, a suppressor IS NOT part of the barrel and will not increase velocity of the bullet. Bullet is flying freely through the suppressor. The suppressor just catches most of the expanding gases and softens the bang from the expanding gas that is leaving the barrel. Also...in handgun/pistol you use subsonic (slower) bullets in order to avoid having the bullet sonic boom from breaking through the sonic wall (9mm usually if supersonic, .45 usually subsonic). There are heavy subsonic 9mm rounds available to be used with silencers...

[El_Verdugo]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

lowering damage by adding a suppressor is the most brain-dead thing I've heard on here.

Not only would a suppressor if it was realistic in a game sense do more damage but also higher penetration.

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

yeah ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ XD

[A Lonely Prince]

Originally posted by mjbn77:

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

lowering damage by adding a suppressor is the most brain-dead thing I've heard on here.

Not only would a suppressor if it was realistic in a game sense do more damage but also higher penetration.

Suppressor = Longer Barrel = Higher Velocity = More Damage

Sorry, but you are very wrong......in real life Suppressor = same barrel length = slower velocity through gas/air disturbance in suppressor (and also sometimes do to heavier slower subsonic bullets) = slower velocity = less penetration (damage is also the wrong work, because damage depends on bullet used JHP vs FMJ), but all at lower but not silent noise levels

A suppressor is slowing down projectiles and makes them less lethal (but only by a tiny portion). Also, a suppressor IS NOT part of the barrel and will not increase velocity of the bullet. Bullet is flying freely through the suppressor. The suppressor just catches most of the expanding gases and softens the bang from the expanding gas that is leaving the barrel. Also...in handgun/pistol you use subsonic (slower) bullets in order to avoid having the bullet sonic boom from breaking through the sonic wall (9mm usually if supersonic, .45 usually subsonic). There are heavy subsonic 9mm rounds available to be used with silencers...

By doing some fact checking online, (you might want to try this as well) there is BARELY any decrees in velocity, in some cases even an increase.

[Butt Spenza]

Originally posted by A Lonely Prince:

Originally posted by mjbn77:

Sorry, but you are very wrong......in real life Suppressor = same barrel length = slower velocity through gas/air disturbance in suppressor (and also sometimes do to heavier slower subsonic bullets) = slower velocity = less penetration (damage is also the wrong work, because damage depends on bullet used JHP vs FMJ), but all at lower but not silent noise levels

A suppressor is slowing down projectiles and makes them less lethal (but only by a tiny portion). Also, a suppressor IS NOT part of the barrel and will not increase velocity of the bullet. Bullet is flying freely through the suppressor. The suppressor just catches most of the expanding gases and softens the bang from the expanding gas that is leaving the barrel. Also...in handgun/pistol you use subsonic (slower) bullets in order to avoid having the bullet sonic boom from breaking through the sonic wall (9mm usually if supersonic, .45 usually subsonic). There are heavy subsonic 9mm rounds available to be used with silencers...

By doing some fact checking online, (you might want to try this as well) there is BARELY any decrees in velocity, in some cases even an increase.

The point is that the velocity has to be subsonic anyway for a good "silencing" effect. You could compensate that with a heavier projectile for comparable kinetic energy, but speed is way more important for penetration than mass is.
So anything subsonic is by nature bad at penetrating stuff compared to higher speed, lower mass projectile. May not matter much on unarmored targets, but on armored it does. (for example 5.7mm vs .45).

Still Off-Topic. Does anyone have reliable weapon stats or not?

[Ajax]

Originally posted by Butt Spenza:

Hey guys,

so I feel that the damage in the game seems to be kinda random.
I oneshotted a suspect with one hit to the thigh from the 57 USG pistol once.
I also hit an unarmored suspect with a SA-58 7,62 mm rifle right into the chest and she lived. Instantly dropped her weapon and surrenderd though, but she lived.
In both cases the hits were double-checked by the blood on the suspects bodies, so that's definitely correct.

Also I find it kinda hard to guess a weapons damage overall as there are no kind of stats, only very superficial descriptions like "impressive muzzle velocity" (SR-16) or "hard punch" (M45A1).
So is it more the gameplay-version: UMP-45 has slowest RoF, so the best damage and penetration:
Or the realistic version: UMP-45 has slowest RoF and weakest penetration, but biggest punch.

Another example are the .45 pistols compared to the 5.7 mm 57 USG.
Gameplay version: Adding a suppressor would lower both weapons damage and penetration capabilities for around the same relative amount.
Realistic version: Adding a suppressor to a .45 would virtually not affect its performance as it's subsonic (250 m/s) anyway.
Adding a suppressor to the 5.7 mm however would completely ruin it as it relies heavily on velocity (500 m/s) for its penetration capabilities.

Are there any reliable sources right now? Like did someone make the effort to test it in the lobby with a friend or found weapon data it in the game files or something?

Thanks!

to anwser your question, yes the damage system is broken, they absolutely need to work on that.

[GRU-Vy]

Velocity, damage and penetration go out the window when your not engaging beyond 30m. Majority of the shootouts in the game are in small rooms with a few outside. Penetration should only be a factor vs armour and/or barriers (walls, objects ect). Damage should be high regardless if its a .45 or 5.56 at the ranges we are shooting at ingame.