From a depots to a sidings model

[EternalSlayer]

In due course it would be cool if instead of a single depot with infinite capacity the player had to place and assign physical sidings on the map for the trains.

[/end-suggestion]

[patrickov]

I second this idea.

Treating depots like stations (like A-Train does) actually helps timetabling as currently trains in depots do not cause signal to go red. If one train is about to enter a depot it can block another train starting from it. That means depots are bad turnaround points at this moment.

[Bigbigcheese]

As per latest devlog:

"Speaking of depots, they have been removed in 1.5, for now. The concept of black holing trains during down times is not very realistic but it makes for an easier game, and I agree with that, but for now I want to see how a different idea plays out: depot lines and storage yards."

[adlet]

I would say automatic black hole depot is a must and the realistic depot is a great to have. It's a bear to line up trains in the order of departure for the morning or to even line them properly on the line sometimes (so the earlier schedule train is ahead of the one that should run next after it). Unless the game will somehow have trains automatically line up properly in the right orders (just as train drivers would do it using NI... natural intelligence). If I line trains up to park on depot tracks, I would either want to have schedules as a separate object such that the first train on the track can be assigned schedule #1, the next train schedule #2, etc.... or alternatively have them line up in any order and make them go into the black hole place inside the depot at say 2am and emerge in the right order say starting at 2:30am. So they are occupying the tracks most of the night but I don't have to do the hard work.

Edit after reading through the blog section on depots. Longer trains (subway, trains) tend to be parked one per track, so the implementation idea works well there. In fact it can be used even in 1.4 (and I even added some zero-area coverage stops into my depots for future implementation). For shorter trains (trams) most real life depots have longer tracks that accommodate anywhere 2-10 trams per track. Just the matter of saving space and having fewer switches. So the idea does not work quite as well because it's very difficult to line up multiple trains in the right order for the morning. Also, tram depots often have as many as 100 trams for the night, and having 100 platforms is not workable.

Empty train lines currently can be used also to test out how the lines work and also debug the schedule. So to categorize all of them as depot lines can be affecting other helpful uses of those lines.

Last, if black hole depots are not there, launching a new line becomes a much longer and more difficult process, as you need to get the depot working too. This can be discouraging. An easy black hole depot can allow to launch a new line and then work separately on adding depot functionality.

[Weird and Wry]

I propose yards instead of depots because 1.5 allows for secondary line stops platforms. So you create a line with a single stop, in "empty trains" mode, whose only purpose is to store trains. That single stop has 20, 30, as many secondary platforms added to it. Trains will automatically pick an empty platform when arriving. Let's call this "parallel" storage.

"Serial" storage where multiple trains are stored tail-to-head in one length of track is not supported under this pattern.

Launching a line without depots works fine in 1.5 since the game uses the timetable to find the right stop for the current day/time, and spawns the train there, rather than queuing all the trains in the first stop as 1.4 did.

[adlet]

Originally posted by Weird and Wry:

"Serial" storage where multiple trains are stored tail-to-head in one length of track is not supported under this pattern.

This concept works very well for train yards and also interestingly bus depots (as buses do not follow tracks and line up parallel in real life depots) and also terminal layover areas. But real tram depots most of the time are serial storage due to space/cost considerations. Real life space for them is also organized accordingly. So this approach would require pretty unrealistic tram depots that could be very hard to fit into real spaces for them. Unless a schedule can be detached from the vehicle into a separate object. I am not sure I understand yet how train order works vs. train run - perhaps that would help if a train order can be assigned to a random train, not just a specific train?

Originally posted by Weird and Wry:

Launching a line without depots works fine in 1.5 since the game uses the timetable to find the right stop for the current day/time, and spawns the train there, rather than queuing all the trains in the first stop as 1.4 did.

Would then this line operate 24x7 unless you find a depot or redirect the trains to another line?

[Weird and Wry]

> Unless a schedule can be detached from the vehicle into a separate object. I am not sure I understand yet how train order works vs. train run - perhaps that would help if a train order can be assigned to a random train, not just a specific train?

This is something like a slot system for orders, and I considered it, but for now it is not implemented.

> Would then this line operate 24x7 unless you find a depot or redirect the trains to another line?

The line is not really "operated" in any way. It just means there are trains whose run schedule tell them they should be at a certain stop at a certain time, and when the game needs to spawn a train, it will look into that schedule. Lines and schedules are now static immutable objects with respect to the simulation, unlike in 1.4, which operated more like a subway with elastic, ever changing intervals.

[adlet]

What would happen in 1.5 if you set up a serial depot, say with 7 tracks with capacity of 4 trams each? If a tram with earlier departure sits behind a tram with later departure, will it simply be blocked and depart from the yard late and then try to catch up on route?

There is probably 2 or 3 workarounds I can think of absent the black hole functionality... lot of work, but kind of like in real life. Usually there are not too many tram lines in a city, so perhaps worth it.

One workaround is to group trams on tracks by appropriate departure time. Say track 1 trams departing 5:15 to 5:22. If the time span is narrow enough, they should be able to catch up even if slightly delayed.

Another workaround is to store trains when they arrive in a matrix order. Track 1 - 1st trains to depart from each of tracks 1 through 4 in the morning. Track 2 - 1st trains to depart from each of tracks 5-7 in the morning. Track 3 - 2nd trains to depart from each of tracks 1-4 in the morning, etc. At 2:00 trains in track 1 each get new order to move to the correct track (1-4), make a circle around the depot and get to the end of line of trains in each track. At 2:05 same for trains in track 2, at 2:10 same for trains in track 3, etc. By 3:00 all trains should be in their correct position for morning departures. Depends on track configuration but should be possible in most serial depots.

Workaround #3 - create a second parallel depot underground. Trains part in the serial depot in any order when they arrive in the evening. At 2:00 they all get an order to leave to a track to go underground and each take a unique spot there (which is out of sight as it is underground). Starting at say 2:30 they all one by one leave the underground depot in the right order back to the serial depot on the ground to take the proper spots.

[MirkoC407]

Underground depots, other than in Bahn, are not ecactly underground. They remain visible on the surface but just have dots around their track I already have noticed the one or other Bahn hack does not work anymore because you see all levels at the same time.

[adlet]

Thanks Mirko... Unfortunate but fair point. Yes, where exactly is the transparent glass cover to peek into the tunnel and a personal escalator (activated by Ctrl-PgDn or similar) to get down to the tunnel level? :)

[Weird and Wry]

Black holes will come back in some form.

[MirkoC407]

In general I'm not unhappy with the current approach. I used underground hacks mostly for freight traffic which we don't have here anyways. Like getting loaded trains back to the logging camp and empties to the sawmill or seaport. Or like the classical model railway fiddle yard where all mixed freight would be reshuffled and some long distance passenger trains would reassigned and get other locos so they would not look the same every day.
Without freight there is not much I miss about it. And I always found it annoying that either you had to manually change level or would jump levels on each track element when approaching a big station with many flyovers. Approach to stations like my Cardiff Central (somewhat overpowered for the real thing, as is the demand slider...) now is much smoother than it used to be in Bahn.