Train Operation Questions

[LuCab]

So this is a question not about the game but about realistic train operations:

Context: I am building stuff in the US (Midwest) and I am realizing that I am using American style trains and my trains are much faster than real train lines (Chicago-St. Louis takes 3 hours instead of 5, for example).

I know that most of it is because I am not simulating potential conflicts with freight railways and I am straightening alignment and making sure that most of the route allows for 200km/h (125mph). I have already decreased the max acceleration of trains to kind of simulate diesel trains being slower to accelerate. So...what other things am I doing wrong? Or am doing nothing wrong per se?

Here are a few questions that I came up with:

a) How long should trains dwell in stations? (I know that this is related to number of doors, if the train is double decker or not, and so on; but what is the "normal" time each type of train should wait at each station? the game default is 30 seconds which is good in like a tram line or something maybe, but what is a realistic dwell time for different types of train? - commuter, double decker commuter, intercity, high speed (don't have those yet), light rail, subways, etc)

b) What is a good time for trains to turn around at stations? (I know that trains stay in terminal stations for a long time, but what are the factors that I should take into consideration with each type of train? (most of the trains I use have cab cars so I wouldn't need a locomotive change, but what is a reasonable time?) Also what are normal timings for different types of train?

c) How long should trains dwell in yards? I am doing a sort of fake through running to a yard in some main stations - I try to through run and have trains wait at yards after the station (think NYC commuter rail after Penn station - and that obviously makes stuff more efficient, but how efficient should it be in order to be realistic?)

d) other ideas as to what I am doing that is making things too good. Because lets be honest, I am using diesel push pull locomotives that go 200km/h (125mph) – they are good trains but they are regular, conventional rail – its good but I am doing insane timings.

Anyway thanks in advance to anyone who knows this sort of thing :)

[juliejayne]

There are a number of things to take into consideration
a) Dwell time in stations, varies by operator etc. I find that watching from the cab videos of various routes, gives you a greater insight. Trams for instance in normal working can stop for as little as 10 seconds, so in game I set 15 seconds. Trains obviously take longer and it can be 60-90 seconds. Or even more.
b) Terminal turnarounds consider the length of time it takes for the driver to shut down the controls at one end of the train, then to walk through the train to the other end, and to start the controls at that end. Personally I would say at least 5 minutes.
c) Yards, again can be very variable. I live next to a main line just outside a mainline station. And outside of my window are a couple of sidings, that you might consider short term yards. Normally commuter trains stop here for a short while, between shifts I guess, so maybe 30-90 minutes. But the train that has just left to go back into service has been here for 5 days!

Beyond that, consider your tracks. Have you set much slower track limits, especially around stations, but also on curves. The game is fairly forgiving on curves and does not slow down on inclines. With trams the game also cannot account for city street running, where trams observe normal road traffic speeds and stop lights.

Good luck and enjoy your re-creation.

[LuCab]

Originally posted by juliejayne:

There are a number of things to take into consideration
a) Dwell time in stations, varies by operator etc. I find that watching from the cab videos of various routes, gives you a greater insight. Trams for instance in normal working can stop for as little as 10 seconds, so in game I set 15 seconds. Trains obviously take longer and it can be 60-90 seconds. Or even more.
b) Terminal turnarounds consider the length of time it takes for the driver to shut down the controls at one end of the train, then to walk through the train to the other end, and to start the controls at that end. Personally I would say at least 5 minutes.
c) Yards, again can be very variable. I live next to a main line just outside a mainline station. And outside of my window are a couple of sidings, that you might consider short term yards. Normally commuter trains stop here for a short while, between shifts I guess, so maybe 30-90 minutes. But the train that has just left to go back into service has been here for 5 days!

Beyond that, consider your tracks. Have you set much slower track limits, especially around stations, but also on curves. The game is fairly forgiving on curves and does not slow down on inclines. With trams the game also cannot account for city street running, where trams observe normal road traffic speeds and stop lights.

Good luck and enjoy your re-creation.

Thanks for your answers.

a) I will probably change the times to 90 seconds - that will be a pain because of scheduling but what can I do? I already do 1 minute in major stations but it still feels too fast.

b) I do between 5 and 8 minutes in turn around stations to sort of maximize that platform for a train every 10 minutes - so that one I got right-ish.

The speed in curves is something that I don't know what to do with. should I just reduce speeds by like 30km/h or something? that would slow down the trains, especially with purposefully bad acceleration, I guess that would be the main thing.

[juliejayne]

You can check ORM, actual details in the US are a bit patchy, compared to Europe, but it gives you some ideas. Other than watching cab rides, the only option is to make an educated guess.

[linuxgamer]

This is from a European perspective, but I'm sure the theory translates into American railways if not the exact timings.
a) Stopping times (especially of intercity trains) vary greatly from station to station. A busy station where a train empties and then fills up again may have a stopping time of 5 minutes, while a smaller station with under 10 entrys+exits per train door may have a stopping time of just one minute.
b) The terminal turnaround isn't there just to turn the train around. That part can take anywhere from 100 seconds to 10 minutes depending on the type of rolling stock and procedures in place. However, a turnaround time of 10 minutes or less for an intercity train is rarely ideal unless the train is going to or coming from the depot or if it's at an intermediate station. Turnaround times are often used to compensate for delays. If the platform capacity allows for a 30 minute turnaround, it's not uncommon to have one. This means that if an arriving train is 15 minutes late from its previous journey, the departing train can still depart on time. This also means that the actual journey from A to B can have a tighter schedule (a faster journey for passengers), while not having to take the risk of compounding delays over multiple journeys during the day.
c) This really depends on why they're going to the yard. If you're using the yard to store out of service trains between the morning and evening peaks, they might spend many hours there. If the stop is used for cleaning, it could be 30 minutes. If you're simply freeing platforms at a nearby station, the yard stop could be anything up from 5 minutes, but that basically just depends on the timetable. If you're not designing your operations from a timetable first perspective, I'd skip that last type of yard run completely.

[adlet]

I think a good question may be - do you want to emulate how the US railroads operate in reality (slow and inefficient) or do you want to create European or Japanese style railroads in the US. As some of your answers will depend on this. It looks like you are okay with making various efficiency improvements, so your trains should spend less time traveling vs. real life. Just a consideration to keep in mind.

Now on specifics, I will add my thoughts and I also generally agree with the above views shared by others.

a) How long should trains dwell in stations?
Shinkansen trains in Japan spend minimum ~1 minute at a typical smaller station, ~1-2 minutes at larger stations. I just rode a high speed train in China last month, it was similar (maximum 3-4 minutes). An exception is when they wait to have another train pass them by, then it can be 3 minutes minimum and up to 8-10 minutes at the higher end.

In Russia conventional long-distance trains have 2 minutes minimum stop time. Major stations, 5-20 minutes typical, but can be as long as an hour or occasionally more. Logistics start playing heavily here - if you need to replace the loco and/or reverse direction, that's probably 20 minutes minimum. If you need to continue on a single track line... well wait until the line's next opening. Or wait until another train arrives where transfer needs to be provided.

Multiple unit trains can be a lot more efficient than loco-driven.

b) What is a good time for trains to turn around at stations?
Shinkansens at Tokyo station spend 15 minutes minimum to unload, get quick-cleaned and reload for the trip back. Conventional commuter trains on Chuo Rapid line at the same Tokyo station often go back after 2 minutes - but this means one driver walks out on one end and another driver walks in at the opposite end. This is done so they can operate with 2-3 minute headway in peak time and just 2 tracks at the terminus. Long-distance conventional Azusa trains at the same Tokyo station take about 5-7 minutes to turn around - the driver has to get a quick break and walk back 240 meters. Passenger loading is always one-way for those trains (either only unload or only load) due to nature of operations, so this helps reduce the time.

In Russia conventional trains are typically allowed 30 minutes at either terminus for initial pax loading or unloading, but I think minimum is ~20 minutes. Practicalities do play a role here - do people carry a lot of luggage, do they have to just step into the car over the gap or climb steps from a low platform, etc. Is the train a seat-in train or has sleeping berths/compartments.

c) How long should trains dwell in yards?

I would say minimum around 1+ hours, but usually quite a bit longer. This is really determined by when you need this train to go on its next trip, for the most part. Trains often get cleaned and/or checked while inside the depot. If a train comes from a 10 hour overnight trip where people sleep in it, it needs quite a bit more cleaning than a train with seats only after a 3-5 hour ride.

There is an interesting example at Shin-Osaka shinkansen station. Trains coming from Tokyo on speedier services head to a nearby depot (~5 minutes away) for 2-4 hours before the trip back. Identical trains coming on slower services have their next trip in approximately 60 minutes. Although they could, they do not go to the depot but instead head to the separate turnaround tracks just past the station where they can go through more extensive cleaning and/or system checking than during the quick 15 minutes they get at the other end of the line in Tokyo. So the sequence in this case would be - ~5 minutes to unload passengers => ~60 minutes in the turnaround track => back to station and ~5 minutes to load passengers.

d) other ideas as to what I am doing that is making things too good. Because lets be honest, I am using diesel push pull locomotives that go 200km/h (125mph) – they are good trains but they are regular, conventional rail – its good but I am doing insane timings.

I think you may be getting close to existing world speed records for diesel trains with 200 km/h. Diesels also accelerate pretty slowly.

Building some real life railroads in Japan and watching cab videos, I see their speed limits, and they are often good 20-30 km/h below what the track is capable of (in curves). I am setting those speed limits for the curves. There is a general line speed limit too, depends on the track type, track condition, landscape, etc. For example, can be 130 km/h (this is narrow gage) - I set it for the tracks. In major station approaches, I set lower speed limits - 25-60 km/h.

In general though, I don't run trains at the maximum speed. For example, the track may allow 130 km/h, less in curves or station approaches. But then I look at how long the actual train in real life takes from station A to station B - say 5 minutes (less stop time). When I set it in NIMBY for this train, this indicates the train needs to run at 102 km/h - so I set the time between the stations and the train goes at the implied speed. This means realistic time, but as an additional benefit, that if a train is late, it can catch up by accelerating up to 130 km/h.

Note, for trams etc. to emulate the effect of traffic signals, I usually set their city speed to 20-25 km/h, up to 40-45 km/h on speedier sections.

[LuCab]

Originally posted by adlet:

I think a good question may be - do you want to emulate how the US railroads operate in reality (slow and inefficient) or do you want to create European or Japanese style railroads in the US. As some of your answers will depend on this. It looks like you are okay with making various efficiency improvements, so your trains should spend less time traveling vs. real life. Just a consideration to keep in mind.

Thanks for your answer. Its the kind of thing that gives me a lot to think about.
I am not American, I just wanted to play there because if I screw up, I don't feel guilty that I built a worse train service than in real life :p
I am just a rail fan, I don't know the ins and outs of train operations. I was just really struck as to why my trains are so much better than the ones that exist in reality. Dwell times and slower speeds to account for potential delays is something to think about.

I feel like most questions here are either new players trying to understand basic game mechanics (I think I got those) or real experts doing insane timetable stuff that is completely beyond me. But I am sort of mid-level trying to make a good network with a decent timetable but trying to make sure that I don’t have a completely unrealistic system

Again, thank you so much