New user basic questions on building tracks/stations

[phxroadrunner]

I don't understand how to connect a track and station. It seems like I should draw a length of track, switch to stations, and basically extend the track with the station. Same at the other end. With everything I've tried I still get e.g. "2 track hits".
1) What is a "track hit"?
2) Am I correct that when I'm building a station I should click on the endpoint of a track? It doesn't seem to connect them automatically.
3) After building the plan I try to add a line. I get "Can't find a path" from one station to the next, and I presume that's because the station/track/station aren't really connected?
I'm clearly missing something very basic here, but the many things I've tried have not yielded results. Looks like I need some pointers.

[mathstrains19]

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

I don't understand how to connect a track and station. It seems like I should draw a length of track, switch to stations, and basically extend the track with the station. Same at the other end. With everything I've tried I still get e.g. "2 track hits".

You should be able to connect them just like when you build tracks. You cannot directly connect 2 stations together.

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

1) What is a "track hit"?

A track hit is where two bits of track are colliding with each other. You can click on the warning to go to the location of the problem.

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

2) Am I correct that when I'm building a station I should click on the endpoint of a track? It doesn't seem to connect them automatically.

Yes, just use the node ends to connect!

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

3) After building the plan I try to add a line. I get "Can't find a path" from one station to the next, and I presume that's because the station/track/station aren't really connected?

You need to actually build out of blueprint. If then it still is causing error, then it wont be connected.

You can tell if something is in blueprint or not by whether the track is blue or not (in default view settings)

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

I'm clearly missing something very basic here, but the many things I've tried have not yielded results. Looks like I need some pointers.

Hopefully everything above helps you. If you need anything else, just ask (I may not reply til the morning though)

[A-Train]

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

I'm clearly missing something very basic here, but the many things I've tried have not yielded results. Looks like I need some pointers.

When laying stations, you can overlap the brown (platform) sections of them to tighten up space. The ground-level stations take up a lot of space, so elevating or making them underground is a better option for tight confines.

You can stack underground platforms vertically, and use them to tie ground-level or elevated platforms together into a larger single station (instead of having a gap forming two separate catchment areas - which is a pain but fairly easy to work around). For example; my Japan Rail project has some stations with platforms separated by run-through track. This creates two catchment areas (effectively two stations next to each other). To overcome this, just lay a minimal-length piece of underground station between them at an angle (minimizes length since the corners touching another station piece will merge them into one).

So you can have a station with an underground platform beneath a ground-level platform beneath an elevated platform... BUT this can be tricky when assigning a platform to a line.

You may have to extend a piece of track off the end of a station/depot to meet with the track you are wanting to connect. It appears that 10 meters is the shortest length of track you can lay, so just run a piece 10-20 meters long off the ends of a station then connect into that.

Another couple of tricks you may not know regard dealing with roadways and rivers at angles - where you get the "red alert" collision deal. If you're at ground (grade) level and coming up to, say, a bigger highway, stop 30-50 meters short and switch to either a tunnel or viaduct. Draw that segment to the middle of the road/river, then switch back to ground level. You'll see the black segments of the transition, and can drag them to look a little more realistic.

Also, don't scrimp on platform lengths. Station capacity is currently limited to 10,000 pax at a time (which sucks but I get it), but the longer your platforms are, and the more of them, the more pax a station can handle.

If you'd like to see some of this in action, check out my YouTube channel and my Tokyo Rail system game. I'd be happy to demonstrate and answer questions for you on there as well - just let me know! :)

[phxroadrunner]

Thanks for the info, though some of it is way beyond the dead simple thing I'm trying to do.

The problem connecting stations to tracks seems to be that I wasn't zoomed in far enough. Zooming wayyy in for adding a station and clicking on a track endpoint node did connect the station to the track.

This seems like a bug more than a feature suggestion. If I'm trying to add a station and I click on the circle for track endpoint (at any zoom level), and there's only one possible thing I can connect to, make that connection. The sort of "snap to nearest endpoint" operation that's common in drawing and CAD programs.

So I've built the blueprint and now have 3 stations connected by 2 track segments. The platform orientations are all:
<- A B-> (A direction is left, B direction is right).
I'm trying to create a line for these 3 stations using the Add Stops function. I click on the rightmost station A and get stop 1. OK so far. I click on the middle station A and get an error saying "Cannot Find Path!". Similarly clicking on the leftmost station A gives me the same error. No idea what I'm doing wrong on this.

[mathstrains19]

id guess that there is some problem with the track being connected
could you give some screenshots?

[phxroadrunner]

First shot is the basic layout:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1prhi9wEdKZY_yNKUHNOs_wJ-sJSTCi1I/view?usp=sharing

Second shot is after adding the 3 stations to the line:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bT_6J3aNjnmL7pEsq4hPIyQtcTvjrBgG/view?usp=sharing

Third shot is a closeup of the middle station (not sure if that's relevant):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZqjzpFB7CRp9Ebkgvv0gjrclNybxyspL/view?usp=sharing

I'm clearly doing something fundamentally wrong, but was trying to follow the brief instructions in the Quick Guide.

[ezzatam]

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

I'm clearly doing something fundamentally wrong, but was trying to follow the brief instructions in the Quick Guide.

Any connected track between stations in a line will have the line colour show up (in Line view)
Your middle station is fine, I think it's the end stations that are not connected to the tracks.

[mathstrains19]

Originally posted by ezzatam:

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

I'm clearly doing something fundamentally wrong, but was trying to follow the brief instructions in the Quick Guide.

Any connected track between stations in a line will have the line colour show up (in Line view)
Your middle station is fine, I think it's the end stations that are not connected to the tracks.

That is what I think as well!

@phxroadrunner - If you cannot find the error, please do send screenshots of the end stations so that we can debug! I suspect it is something in the vicinity of these two end stations, in the respective directions towards the middle station

[phxroadrunner]

I think I've tracked it down to a sequence of events. I've changed the order in which I created tracks & stations and can now create a line with stops.

I started by drawing track segments. I noticed that as long as I stayed in track drawing/editing mode the endpoints have a giant + symbol. Clicking on that does snap to the endpoint as I expected and allowed me to add new segments.

Here's the problem: When I switch to station draw/edit mode the + symbols on the track endpoints go away. I cannot connect the station endpoint to a track endpoint. They're separate, disconnected entities and thus there is no path beyond the station itself.

If I draw the stations first, they also have + symbols at their endpoints. I can draw new track segments and connect to them.

It's counter-intuitive, though, that it's possible to connect track endpoints to station endpoints, but not connect station endpoints to track endpoints. Surely this isn't what was intended.

[ezzatam]

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

It's counter-intuitive, though, that it's possible to connect track endpoints to station endpoints, but not connect station endpoints to track endpoints. Surely this isn't what was intended.

The gap beteween track and station can only be filled by track, not by an extension to the station. So instead of building track then station then link them with more track, always build your stations first, especially if they have a bunch of platforms. Then build the tracks to link those stations.

Also I prefer to start the line with the far end of the first station so I won't forget to add it on the way back or have to check which platform the line uses again if it's a busy terminal station . eg BA-A-A-AB-B-B for 4 stations

[phxroadrunner]

Conceptually, though, you're just linking the endpoints of two entities. It shouldn't matter what the entities are. For example, a CAD program will let you start a line by clicking near another object's node to snap to it, then extend the line out from there. Or you can start the line elsewhere and snap it to the object's node. The order shouldn't matter. It's a confusing restriction.

[mathstrains19]

the reason behind this is because you cant connect 2 stations directly together (or have a single section of track connecting - there must be at least 2 track sections between each station), this means, that when you are in station mode, you wont be able to draw from a station, as that would be connecting 2 stations together directly. You can draw the majority of the track first, switch to station mode, draw those, switch back to track and it will still work!

My process is usually, start with an origin station (or from another station on something already built). Tap "N", lay some track, use "M" to readjust if needed, (repeat some more....), tap "T" to build another station, "N" to connect it up, repeat...

[robertklein78]

Looks like you used tramtrack. If you use trains for your line that will not work. And I do not see a connections to a depot which you need to get a train or tram going

[mathstrains19]

Originally posted by robertklein78:

Looks like you used tramtrack. If you use trains for your line that will not work. And I do not see a connections to a depot which you need to get a train or tram going

I dont believe the type of track affects anything but the max speed. You do NOT need a connection to a depot to get this going. The first time after a train has been bought, it is stored in a depot in the "clouds", and can then spawn immediately at its first station. Later on, you need a depot to store it outside of the running lines.

[phxroadrunner]

Originally posted by mathstrains19:

the reason behind this is because you cant connect 2 stations directly together (or have a single section of track connecting - there must be at least 2 track sections between each station), this means, that when you are in station mode, you wont be able to draw from a station, as that would be connecting 2 stations together directly. You can draw the majority of the track first, switch to station mode, draw those, switch back to track and it will still work!

Interesting note about there needing to be 2 track segments between stations. I didn't know that. I can see that it would be good practice to do this since if you don't there's no node to branch a new track off an existing one. I don't understand it being a requirement, though.

The larger point I'm making here is that as a brand new user who just paid for and downloaded the game, I wasn't able to do the most basic things because they don't work the same way as other tools I use (namely, connecting thing A to thing B to thing C). There are unique restrictions and rules that are not intuitive. The clever and interesting higher functions in the game weren't reachable without the basic mechanics of connecting tracks and stations. If this was a general release product I'd just chalk it up as wasted money, give it a thumbs down, and move on. Since it's still at some alpha level of development, though, I thought it would be useful for the developers to know there's a barrier to new users.

With an interface that looks familiar, but has unusual rules, something has to change to avoid frustrating new users like me. Options I see are: 1) Help the user avoid the mistakes I made by changing the interface to guide them better. 2) Document the living hell out of the ways it doesn't act like other programs (and even games like Trainz). This may already be the plan, as docs normally are done near the end of development when it's stopped changing so often. 3) Just let me connect things in the way other programs do (obviously my preference LOL). Having been a developer for a long time, I would groan loudly at the suggestion that something done so early should be changed.

Since I've already paid for and download this, I'll check back in a month or two and see what's new. For wrestling with the basic mechanics is not fun. The aspirations the game has are just the sort of thing I like and I'd very much like it to succeed.

[ezzatam]

Originally posted by phxroadrunner:

Options I see are: 1) Help the user avoid the mistakes I made by changing the interface to guide them better. 2) Document the living hell out of the ways it doesn't act like other programs (and even games like Trainz). This may already be the plan, as docs normally are done near the end of development when it's stopped changing so often. 3) Just let me connect things in the way other programs do (obviously my preference LOL). Having been a developer for a long time, I would groan loudly at the suggestion that something done so early should be changed.

You have a fair point about 1) because the quick guide does introduce tracks first and teaches the wrong way around.

However this is rectified for your point 2) because the guide documents that "Stations are not linked by default to existing tracks, and you must build another track segment to link them. For urban and local builds it's often a good idea to start building with the stations, and then build the tracks.

Stations are not limited to a single platform either. It is possible and often desirable to have more than one platform in a station. To do so, just build another platform parallel to an existing one, making sure the border areas touch, but not the actual tracks:"

Personally for point 3), every game do their own thing. Railroad Empire join stations with track like NIMBY. Cities in Motion and Sid Meier's Railroads upgrades track into stations. TTD uses a grid so it didn't matter whether station or track was built first