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When the Chrono Trigger future is saved, Balthazar gets flung to a saved future instead of the destroyed one we saw in CT. From here, Balthazar finds Chronopolis, a place where he can use its resources to be near-omniscient (you'll see why I say that soon enough). They also are able to get a piece of Lavos (the frozen flame) to experiment on. At some point, Robo (prometheus circuit) is assigned to watch motherbrain (now repurposed as "Fate"). Its here, Balthazar comes up with the plans for "Project Kid" to free Schala. Now the complicated part.
He has Chronopolis get sent to 6000 BC, by experimenting on that piece of Lavos. The planet / entity / whatever of the first game thinks Lavos is coming back, and so pulls Dinopolis in from a parallel dimension with Chronopolis to counter balance what it sees as Lavos returning. (Dinopolis is a reference to the Reptite ending in CT, but its from the 2400 AD future like Chronopolis is)
The future reptites bring Elements from their timeline to ours, which is *important* for later and basically what Balthazar was counting on. From here, the dino Reptite people lose because FATE has the power of Lavos which splits their "cybernetic" bio-android Dragon God into the six Element dragons.
FATE terraforms the landmasses of Chronopolis and Dinopolis into a poisonous reef that prevents as little interaction with history as possible, and also forms the islands of El Nido where the game takes place. The Chronopolis researchers have children who become the human residents of the isles and the leftover reptites become the dragonians who interbreed with the humans eventually and they become demi-humans. FATE uses the green save points as a way to brainwash everyone from messing up the timeline anymore than it already has. FATE hates its job and wants to create life of its own with the frozen flame but Robo won't let it use it again. Most importantly, Balthazar goes to around 1020 AD using the epoch / wings of time.
We're back around where Chrono Trigger started in 1000 AD now, and keep in mind, Balthazar still knows everything that is happening next. Schala, clones herself as Kid. We see this in the playstation one FMV ending of Chrono Trigger, and all the versions after it. It is Lavos-Schala who creates a magnetic storm to blow a sick poisoned-by-panther-demon child Serge to Chronopolis. Serge gets healed but dies later to FATE who brainwashed his dad into drowning him in an attempt to see if Serge dying would open the door to the frozen flame. It doesn't (lol). Another world is the original world. The dragons used the electrical storm as cover to create Harle.
At some point, Balthazar meets a grown Kid in Another world, and tells her to go back in time to save Serge from drowning to his possessed father. He presumably lends the Epoch to her. This is why Serge dreams of Kid on the beach without even officially meeting her yet. This act creates Home world, and now we have a paradox that Serge can slip world from world from as the missing link between worlds.
Serge also had the motivation to save Schala out of his connection to Kid, who had done the same for him. We can theorize that even FATE being motherbrain was Balthazars move on making an antagonist worthy to toughen up Serge before Lavos.
Another theory, not related to Balthazar, is that Schalavos saving Serge might not of been entirely altruistic. The Lavos side of her might of wanted Serge to touch the Frozen Flame, potentially being part of its plan to resurrect itself. This plot seems mostly dropped, but we do see mention of how Serge is potentially the end of the world a lot.
So its even more confusing than I thought.
I see now that my first assumption is false.
I played the game assuming that the two worlds we travel are one world where we saved the world in CT (the one with Chronopolis because the future city exists) and one world where Lavos is still waiting to awaken (the one with the dead sea, because we travel a destroyed future city with reports of Lavos awakening).
So in both worlds Lavos has been destroyed (there is an intact future city and we find pieces of Lavos) and our home wrold was created when Kid went back in time to save Serge.
It looks like every time somebody goes back in time and changes something, a new world is created. So there is one world for every ending of CT plus more because Chrono and friends were not the only ones to travel through time.
I thought the sages of Zeal were normal humans. They were advisors/scientists of the queen (not that she listened to them) but they are not all knowing or super powerful. When Balthazar is send to 2300, why is he still alive 2400 (when FATE was build) and how can he meet Kid in another world (Kid lives in the present, he lives in the distant future. If he travelled back in time with the City he would be over 7000 years old.)
How could Schala clone herself and send her clone to the present?
I played the steam version of CT, but I do not remember all videos and I did not replay both games to see all endings.
I thought that Serge is the main char because he is the only person of the archipelago who is not under the control of FATE, so he is the only one who is free to change events and people against the will of FATE. Serge is supposed to be dead, but because he was saved by Kid. So he is a being that should not exist.
- At least this is what I first thought. But Serge is the main char because he had contact with the frozen flame. Because of that FATE lost partly control over both worlds which allows Serge to do what he wants and Lynx has to search for him instead of just knowing where he is. Because FATE manipulates the people of the archipelago I see no other way how Serge could act against FATE.
Some questions:
10 years ago Lynx kills Serge and Kid saves him which creates the home world:
- How does Lynx know that Serge is still alive? He killed him after all.
- Why does Lynx search for Serge in another world when he lives in the home world?
- Are there two Lynx? (one from home world and one from another world)
- Lynx is in another world. He could have used the body of Serge after he killed him to enter FATE control room. Don´t tell me Lynx found out that he need a living Serge to enter the room after he killed him.
Why did Lavos do this? In the Chrono Trigger DS version, the secret boss is called the "Dreamdevourer". We also know Lavos is harvesting humans according to dialogue by the CT crew when they face off against Lavos. I think the general idea is that Lavos is a literal brain or mind eater. Bigger, more twisted minds is just more food for Lavos.
More importently, the story makes sense to the average player.
CC is an OK game.
But the story is a complete mess. Its amazing how the devs could think of this. First that they invented such a story to begin with and second that they expect the player to understand it.
Now my favourite JRPG with an epic story would be Nier:Automata.
Its complex, but the story makes sense to me.
Nier:Replicant is way more confusing.
I do not understand the whole body/soul dividing stuff and what caused it. I do not understand why the replicants are not humans and I do not understand why killing the shadow lord would end humanity.
For the story of Nier:Automata it is sufficiant to know that humans are long dead. The details of how they died are not relevant.
- Lynx searches for Serge in Another World. There is only the Another World Lynx. The dead sea, which is where "Chronopolis 2" would be located, is distorted and just a mess because Serge living creates some sort of paradoxical future where Lavos gets free (its that semi-dropped plotline i spoke about before). With Serge getting all this help from people across another dimension he kinda fixes his own future I suppose.
- I guess FATE was keeping Wazuki alive, without FATE he doesn't turn into Lynx, he just drowns
- Yes, FATE learned it needed a living Serge after it killed him. LOL its actually kinda funny
But the pacing in pursuit of that goal and the shift in tone was not for a lot of people. Me? I love it.
Lavos is thought to be like a time traveling god. Crono and friends didn't defeat it in Chrono Trigger, it merely fled through a portal and got stuck in the "Darkness Beyond Time" that it had sent Schala to. From the Darkness Beyond Time, it can make subtle influences, thats why it probably healed Serge with the Frozen flame...Serge was going to be its tool. You're telling me a time traveling god that mutates and heals people from near death on a molecular level can't clone its human self? Ok
Anyways, if you want to see Kid in CT, this is the video I'm talking about, towards the end she appears: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71QrEII2Vo
Just from playing CT you cannot know that this is a clone from princess Schala.
When playing CT alone, you only know that Schala ( a minor side character in this game ) disappears after the event with Lavos and Lucca finds a baby after the events of the game are over. You do not know that both events are related, that Schala merged with Lavos and that she created a clone of herself and send it through time.
Yes, I remember the video now that I see it again. I could not remember it because I was trying to remember something that showed the Schala merging with Lavos and cloning herself.
Regarding Lynx:
- Serge and his father entered chronopolis 14 years ago
- His father becomes Lynx
- 10 years ago Lynx kills Serge. He is saved by Kid which creates the home world.
- Assuming that both worlds are identical regarding all events that happened before Kid saved Serge, there should be a Lynx in both worlds because he existed before the separation of both worlds.
about consistency of time travel:
To me, CT makes sense. At least if you assume that changes in the past have only an effect in the future once you actually see that character travelling in the past and doing something. I admit that I do not remember all details of the game, but when I played it I thought I understand the story and I was not bothered by giant logic jumps.
In CC you do not see anyone travelling through time (except Kids save mode) .
It is only implied that every time someone travels through time and changes something a new world is created. You can explain almost everything by saying "Well, it happened in another timeline that is not shown in this game and somehow something from that other time line entered the game world.
Its amazing how writers often come up with the concept: "Somebody has a super complicated plan to save the world (or the plan puts the world in danger in the first place), it goes terribly wrong and then and then the player has to go through some super complicated mess to fix it.
In case of Balthazar:
- He could do nothing. Schala is dead since millennia, thats sad but people die sometimes. Lavos gets defeated, case solved.
- Or he builds a computer that can manipulate people, get a dino city and the dragon god into his world (because he needs dragon magic for his plan and they were extincted 65mio years ago), move both things thousends of years back in time, defeat the dragons and then send a clone of Schala to save a person in order to create yet another world. Sure, what could possibly go wrong?
I get the feeling game devs or movie directors want to feel clever by creating a super complicated story but they run into problems at some point and as a result everyone is confused: the devs, the characters and the players.
To be fair, this is not exclusive to JRPGs. Watch the list of "worst movies ever" or play Pathfinder WotR. (its a great game if you get along with the super complicated Pathfinder ruleset.
Spoiler to WotR
A powerful witch loses her child to some overzealous crusaders. To get back her child she merges her world with the abbyss, starts a demon invasion and then the hero has to fight those demons to finally reincarnate as her child.
Wait a sec, why did she not just use a spell like resurrection, true resurrection or wish when she is that powerful?
As gold standart for good story telling in games I would say:
- Planescape Torment for western RPGs
- Trails in the sky/azure/zero/cold steel for JRPG
Yes, the devs managed to create a consistent world with 9 games so far (more to come)that is practically one big story split up in several parts. You will find some logic holes if you serch for them, but overall the devs managed to create a consistent, believable and living world.
Time travel in Chrono Trigger works kinda weird, for instance, we see Marle disappear like its Back to the Future, yet all other examples of time travel in the game this doesn't seem to be the case, she hadn't even died yet. Theres several other paradoxes. Such as if Ayla leaves for the future, how did history not radically change the future with her no longer being the progenitor of Guardia.
The pacing however throws you off from thinking too hard about these things. But Chrono Cross feels the need to explain *everything*, and this tends to over-complicate things with exposition or red herrings.
If you view the story more like lore that is pieced together, like Dark Souls, then you'll enjoy the story telling of Cross more.
Beating the game after learning about the Records of Fate and then realizing that FATE might of influenced you is such a meta mind blow i can't believe it was written all the way back then.
Edit: The video shows baby Kid with Schala's pendant. Thats supposed to be the big hint to prepare you for Chrono Cross.
CT does have some strange logic. But most players (including me) do not care. The game does not explain that much and the player knows where to go next. This gave me a very good experiance when playing it.
CC tries to explain a lot of things, and fails (at least for me). Like many times you walk around and then somebody throws a wall of text with game lore at you, and sometimes these words can be quite cryptic. Maybe all of this makes sense or maybe not, because I cannot remember all the details somebody told me hours or days before and I cannot put all those information together to one consistent story.
Maybe this game would have profit from a "quest log" as in "Things I learned about this world and the events that happened so far".
Something like at the start of PST where the main char says: " Looks like I have lost my memory and I had a journal and I lost it too." and he gets the answer: "Well, start writing a new one and find out what the hell is going on."
Serge does not have amnesia (the default way of avoiding the problem that the main char would have lots of knowledge about the game world that the player does not have), but getting stranded in a parrallel world would confuse him so much that he starts to write down what he learns.
I did not play dark souls.
I like games with a complex story, but it would be nice if you can understand the main part of the story just by playing the game. In CC I failed to understand that Kids time travel to save me was the event that separated both game worlds. For a long time I thought that defeating Lavos was the difference between both worlds. And Schala send her clone somewhere through time and space and Kid accidentily arrived in this world at that time and saving me was a coincidence.
I think my false belief was created or at least strenghened by a letter from Lucca we find in the game. She writes something like: "So we defeated Lavos and saved the world. But what about the other timeline that we have destroyed. What of all the people that could have existed and we denied them their future."When Finding this letter, I thought that I finally realized the main point of the game, that destroying Lavos ended the existence of one world (either home world or another world). With the knowledge I have now, this letter just shows us Lucca thinking about things, but it has no direct relevance for the game ( as in, if there is yet another world where Lavos has not been destroyed, it does not have any influence of the game).
So from a giant amount of lore dump, I picked the wrong piece as my base for understanding the game.