Independent people need to be rebalanced

[Clover Creepy Girl™]

I wont pretend that I'm someone who enjoyed 'barbarians' in the civ games. I always turn them off. Their ability to just spawn units with no care or need for anything beyond existing, with a goal of exclusively screwing your game over was in no way fun.

In Humankind I thought it was better at first, I saw spawn locations popup, I could raze them and I figured I was safe, and then I realized I was wrong.

There is nothing more frustrating then being on and island with NO OTHER PLAYERS and no other people and hitting the first era past neolithic and seeing every territory you dont own just becoming owned by various independent people (which is SO MUCH WORSE then civ's city states).
Not only is that frustrating, but they also spawn with significantly more advanced units that you have. (most of the time when they spawn you just have scouts). They also spawn with units that they dont have the resources to support.
For example, my island has 0 horses. none at all, 0 nada zilch, no horses. 4 city states spawn in a 9 territory island, they all spawn with armies of chariots and continue to produce them regardless of resources.

Atleast Civ has a 'no barbarian' mode to make the game playable for me. Humankind has no such option, and that honestly needs to change. The devs saw a good quality of life feature in the game they were using as inspiration and said 'nah, screw that, lol!'

[AOM]

If you're interested in playing HK with no independent people, we made a mod that will allow you to turn them off when you pick your map settings before starting a game. It is here:
https://gc2021.com/showthread.php?tid=35

[Clover Creepy Girl™]

Originally posted by AOM:

If you're interested in playing HK with no independent people, we made a mod that will allow you to turn them off when you pick your map settings before starting a game. It is here:
https://gc2021.com/showthread.php?tid=35

That is very useful, good work!

[AOM]

:) Thank you.

[vael1211]

Your thread title doesn't match your complaint. It seems you don't want a re-balance, you want the ability to turn independents off all together. These two things are not the same and I don't see anything about any kind of balance change you would like to see in independents.

IMO they are an obstacle that needs to be overcome and/or avoided early game... But mid to late game you just stomp them for a free city here and there. The only balancing I see as needed is their ability to effectively city plan, because honestly their cities are completely random trash when it comes to city layout and almost not even worth taking. I think they need to be made harder and more competent.

[Clover Creepy Girl™]

Yes I would like them removed, but I clearly stated that the fact that they mass spawn without any way to prevent it, and with technology above what you could have at the time AND with resources that they dont have access to, is unfun and unfair and needs to be rebalanced.

I dont need to say 'this specifically needs to be rebalanced, the title of the post puts that implication over every complaint.

[AOM]

Originally posted by vael1211:

Your thread title doesn't match your complaint. It seems you don't want a re-balance, you want the ability to turn independents off all together. These two things are not the same and I don't see anything about any kind of balance change you would like to see in independents.

IMO they are an obstacle that needs to be overcome and/or avoided early game... But mid to late game you just stomp them for a free city here and there. The only balancing I see as needed is their ability to effectively city plan, because honestly their cities are completely random trash when it comes to city layout and almost not even worth taking. I think they need to be made harder and more competent.

The point of the original post is clear. And, someone saying they don't like minor AI factions in their game isn't "complaining." They're saying they don't like minor AI factions in their game. And, there is a mod that removes the minor AI factions if people don't want them.

Maybe someday, someone will make a mod that adjusts the independents in the game to meet your preference too. :)

[SBA77]

From what I can tell Independent People have their own civilizations/cultures, as basic as they are. Maybe if they reduce to the number of "Independent People Cultures" or promote some of them into to fully-fledged playable cultures (the Medes, Etruscans, Cherusci and Nazca come to mind), that would result in fewer of them spawning.

[Captain Butthurt]

As a member of a group that mostly plays MP, I mostly see indies as a major balancing issue.

And while they might cause you some headache, as long as you have at least 1 army of 4 units (2 of those you usually find in curiosities if you're playing optimally), they rarely should give you much trouble.

The major balancing issue is that they give you free cities. Like, completely free. Their cities spawn with 0 citizens, so as long as you have a scout on a lookout at the edge of his 4-tile movement range from the city center, you usually can just run in and take it without a siege in 1 turn.

In MP, independent nation spawns are DESIRABLE and can place you neatly at 3/2 cities in the ancient/classical era, positioning you to simply run away with the game very early on (as you can spend unused influence on claiming Cultural Wonders, civics, outposts + whatever districts you can buy with influence in unattached outposts). They are usually not placed optimally for maximum FIMS, but most of the times you can work with them.

Even if you are not interested in extra free cities, they provide ample opportunities to farm military stars and unit experience - which is especially helpful if you're on an island with no other civs and thus don't have other opportunities for combat.

But I agree, they probably shouldn't spawn units that require SR unless they have access to them. Other than that, the only other "Fix" I would suggest is spawning their cities with at least 1 citizen, so that players wouldn't cheese the F out of them.

The ability to disable them altogether would also be a good addition - more player agency is always beneficial - although I personally wouldn't use it.

[AOM]

Originally posted by Captain Butthurt:

As a member of a group that mostly plays MP, I mostly see indies as a major balancing issue.

And while they might cause you some headache, as long as you have at least 1 army of 4 units (2 of those you usually find in curiosities if you're playing optimally), they rarely should give you much trouble.

The major balancing issue is that they give you free cities. Like, completely free. Their cities spawn with 0 citizens, so as long as you have a scout on a lookout at the edge of his 4-tile movement range from the city center, you usually can just run in and take it without a siege in 1 turn.

In MP, independent nation spawns are DESIRABLE and can place you neatly at 3/2 cities in the ancient/classical era, positioning you to simply run away with the game very early on (as you can spend unused influence on claiming Cultural Wonders, civics, outposts + whatever districts you can buy with influence in unattached outposts). They are usually not placed optimally for maximum FIMS, but most of the times you can work with them.

Even if you are not interested in extra free cities, they provide ample opportunities to farm military stars and unit experience - which is especially helpful if you're on an island with no other civs and thus don't have other opportunities for combat.

But I agree, they probably shouldn't spawn units that require SR unless they have access to them. Other than that, the only other "Fix" I would suggest is spawning their cities with at least 1 citizen, so that players wouldn't cheese the F out of them.

The ability to disable them altogether would also be a good addition - more player agency is always beneficial - although I personally wouldn't use it.

Everything you've just said is why some people just don't want minor AI factions in the game. Some people perceive of them as a gimmick or exploit, especially in MP. Some just don't like them. Each to his/her own.

There is a way to disable them altogether for people who don't like them for whatever reason, and there are many reasons not to like them. The mod allows players to include or exclude independents from the game when they are picking map features before beginning a game. People can download it at the link below (you don't need to join, sign up, or sign in to download):
https://gc2021.com/showthread.php?tid=35

[VDmitry]

Originally posted by Captain Butthurt:

As a member of a group that mostly plays MP, I mostly see indies as a major balancing issue.

And while they might cause you some headache, as long as you have at least 1 army of 4 units (2 of those you usually find in curiosities if you're playing optimally), they rarely should give you much trouble.

The major balancing issue is that they give you free cities. Like, completely free. Their cities spawn with 0 citizens, so as long as you have a scout on a lookout at the edge of his 4-tile movement range from the city center, you usually can just run in and take it without a siege in 1 turn.

In MP, independent nation spawns are DESIRABLE and can place you neatly at 3/2 cities in the ancient/classical era, positioning you to simply run away with the game very early on (as you can spend unused influence on claiming Cultural Wonders, civics, outposts + whatever districts you can buy with influence in unattached outposts). They are usually not placed optimally for maximum FIMS, but most of the times you can work with them.

Even if you are not interested in extra free cities, they provide ample opportunities to farm military stars and unit experience - which is especially helpful if you're on an island with no other civs and thus don't have other opportunities for combat.

But I agree, they probably shouldn't spawn units that require SR unless they have access to them. Other than that, the only other "Fix" I would suggest is spawning their cities with at least 1 citizen, so that players wouldn't cheese the F out of them.

The ability to disable them altogether would also be a good addition - more player agency is always beneficial - although I personally wouldn't use it.

Giving "free" militaristic stars - it's how independents are designed I believe.

What is not designed is that they can be conquered with a single scout because of 0 pop. That may be treated like a bug.

[Captain Butthurt]

Originally posted by VDmitry:

Giving "free" militaristic stars - it's how independents are designed I believe.

What is not designed is that they can be conquered with a single scout because of 0 pop. That may be treated like a bug.

Well, probably not a bug - "technically", they are working without a hitch. Just another one of the glaring and obvious balance issues this game is unfortunately riddled with.

P.S.

Mamma mia, that's a spicy CIV fanboy you've got in your profile comments.

[The Former]

Originally posted by AOM:

Originally posted by Captain Butthurt:

As a member of a group that mostly plays MP, I mostly see indies as a major balancing issue.

And while they might cause you some headache, as long as you have at least 1 army of 4 units (2 of those you usually find in curiosities if you're playing optimally), they rarely should give you much trouble.

The major balancing issue is that they give you free cities. Like, completely free. Their cities spawn with 0 citizens, so as long as you have a scout on a lookout at the edge of his 4-tile movement range from the city center, you usually can just run in and take it without a siege in 1 turn.

In MP, independent nation spawns are DESIRABLE and can place you neatly at 3/2 cities in the ancient/classical era, positioning you to simply run away with the game very early on (as you can spend unused influence on claiming Cultural Wonders, civics, outposts + whatever districts you can buy with influence in unattached outposts). They are usually not placed optimally for maximum FIMS, but most of the times you can work with them.

Even if you are not interested in extra free cities, they provide ample opportunities to farm military stars and unit experience - which is especially helpful if you're on an island with no other civs and thus don't have other opportunities for combat.

But I agree, they probably shouldn't spawn units that require SR unless they have access to them. Other than that, the only other "Fix" I would suggest is spawning their cities with at least 1 citizen, so that players wouldn't cheese the F out of them.

The ability to disable them altogether would also be a good addition - more player agency is always beneficial - although I personally wouldn't use it.

Everything you've just said is why some people just don't want minor AI factions in the game. Some people perceive of them as a gimmick or exploit, especially in MP. Some just don't like them. Each to his/her own.

There is a way to disable them altogether for people who don't like them for whatever reason, and there are many reasons not to like them. The mod allows players to include or exclude independents from the game when they are picking map features before beginning a game. People can download it at the link below (you don't need to join, sign up, or sign in to download):
https://gc2021.com/showthread.php?tid=35

Isn't there just... a setting for this, too? I haven't fiddled with it so maybe it doesn't let you remove them entirely but I'm fairly sure there's a setting for it ingame.

[Clover Creepy Girl™]

I'v searched extensively in the options of the game and found no way to disable them.

I get that its a free city, and that you can farm military stars but I personally do not like playing militarily in this game. I play these games to build cities and create the interworking mechanisms that make these games engine run, thats what I enjoy. Being forced to stop what im doing and spend a real world hour or two dealing with AI that are just designed to mess up your day is the last thing I want to deal with.

[VDmitry]

Originally posted by Stephanie Sad Girl™:

I'v searched extensively in the options of the game and found no way to disable them.

I get that its a free city, and that you can farm military stars but I personally do not like playing militarily in this game. I play these games to build cities and create the interworking mechanisms that make these games engine run, thats what I enjoy. Being forced to stop what im doing and spend a real world hour or two dealing with AI that are just designed to mess up your day is the last thing I want to deal with.

What problem they do to you? Don't your engine provide you with 100 gold to bribe every aggressive independents?

[AOM]

Originally posted by VDmitry:

Originally posted by Stephanie Sad Girl™:

I'v searched extensively in the options of the game and found no way to disable them.

I get that its a free city, and that you can farm military stars but I personally do not like playing militarily in this game. I play these games to build cities and create the interworking mechanisms that make these games engine run, thats what I enjoy. Being forced to stop what im doing and spend a real world hour or two dealing with AI that are just designed to mess up your day is the last thing I want to deal with.

What problem they do to you? Don't your engine provide you with 100 gold to bribe every aggressive independents?

They won't cause any problem if they're disabled. It's pretty par for the course for games to provide an option to turn off minor AI factions. It's surprising that HK doesn't. Many people just don't like them.