industrial era infrastructure is not wroth building

[Greedogre]

if you calculate the invastment in return of production, it is insane to build something use 7600 production which will probably nver paid you back before the game end

[Matthew]

Ye that tends to be the case in 4x games. Since science can ramp up so quickly in HK, the effect is even more amplified. Even building last era emblematic districts is mostly a victory lap since even those yields aren't going to do much before the game ends.

[Greedogre]

no the main problem is the food and production infrastructure, they should be seperated from science and influce and trade infrastructure

[Captain Butthurt]

1) This is usually the case in all 4x games. By the last 50-30 turns there usually already is a clear winner, and you just build stuff to pass the time (if you give up) OR you build a massive military to try and turn the tables (which might not even help in HK, considering that Fame is the main victory condition).
So it is inherently useless, and probably can't be really fixed.

2) The way science is balanced in this game makes it almost impossible to keep up with city infrastructure/railroads/airports/EQ.
As long as you picked a single science nation (especially in Early Modern and further eras) and made at least SOME investment into science infrastructure/districts, you research tech with lightning speed - even with barely any research quarters.
I'm yet to build a single airplane in this game - in both MP and SP. By the time I research them, I'm researching a new tech every 2 (max 3) turns, and I'm still in the middle of building my railroad network. Prioritizing new production/science infrastructure leaves very little opportunities to build anything else.

There are also some baffling design choices in the research tree. Like how you can research nuclear fission and fusion without ever researching electricity. What do you use nuclear power for? Boiling water for tea?
Every game turns into some sort of steampunk alternative reality, with game usually ending with human players using Line Infantry and Modern Artillery despite researching every tech in the game - there is usually no time/money/point to modernize past this - considering that Expert AI is still rocking Arquebusiers at best.

TL:DR
This game is in dire need of tech tree and science gain rebalance. And don't get me started on the "collective minds" special ability...

[Greedogre]

Originally posted by Captain Butthurt:

1) This is usually the case in all 4x games. By the last 50-30 turns there usually already is a clear winner, and you just build stuff to pass the time (if you give up) OR you build a massive military to try and turn the tables (which might not even help in HK, considering that Fame is the main victory condition).
So it is inherently useless, and probably can't be really fixed.

2) The way science is balanced in this game makes it almost impossible to keep up with city infrastructure/railroads/airports/EQ.
As long as you picked a single science nation (especially in Early Modern and further eras) and made at least SOME investment into science infrastructure/districts, you research tech with lightning speed - even with barely any research quarters.
I'm yet to build a single airplane in this game - in both MP and SP. By the time I research them, I'm researching a new tech every 2 (max 3) turns, and I'm still in the middle of building my railroad network. Prioritizing new production/science infrastructure leaves very little opportunities to build anything else.

There are also some baffling design choices in the research tree. Like how you can research nuclear fission and fusion without ever researching electricity. What do you use nuclear power for? Boiling water for tea?
Every game turns into some sort of steampunk alternative reality, with game usually ending with human players using Line Infantry and Modern Artillery despite researching every tech in the game - there is usually no time/money/point to modernize past this - considering that Expert AI is still rocking Arquebusiers at best.

TL:DR
This game is in dire need of tech tree and science gain rebalance. And don't get me started on the "collective minds" special ability...

+! make sense

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Captain Butthurt:

I'm yet to build a single airplane in this game - in both MP and SP. By the time I research them, I'm researching a new tech every 2 (max 3) turns,

What's interesting if you never questioned your way to play, and never wondered if you couldn't low down invest on science for something else.

For players more newbies, there's the curiosity aspect dragging rush to search next stuff asap to see it asap. But players with more experience, not be able adapt your play, that's bizarre. ok last difficulty level is too easy for you, but that's another problem.

[PenguinO]

I believe very few people ever built a full carrier fleet with more than 2 carriers + max airplanes on each.

There is bug where the whole squadron of airplanes disappeared from game.
There were 3 squadrons but the whole of the 1st squadron mysteriously disappeared while my 3rd squadron was almost complete.

Moreover, there are problems with carrier:
- multiple carriers (loaded) stacking on same hex
- airplane transfer between carriers on same hex
- how to use airplane of carrier in battle area? (3 rounds like other units)
- airplane from outside battle area cannot only attack 1 time

[Dorok]

Full carrier fleet? It's not clear, the only Carrier I remind is Aircraft Carrier, one stack of submarines around, one or two Aircraft Carrier, for ship battles only one, rest of stack with Cruisers, both types seem fine, one stack of Cruisers, 3 stacks, that's defintely how I quickly endered wanderer sea late game after to have lost some surprise battles. And some variations around 2 stacks of sub marines and so on.

My comment on 3 stacks minimum was for land, for sea, AI seems rarely wanderer with one late ship or two or they are lure. At reverse on land it's quite weird.

[Captain Butthurt]

Never experienced any bugs with carriers as I've never built one, lmao.

Expert AI personas on Humankind difficulty can't even reach steam frigates and ironclads by the end of the game (I usually trigger it by researching all techs). So all you really need is a full stack of those bad boys and whatever invasion force you're aiming to use - and you'll be completely unopposed on the seas.

[Dorok]

I got a stack of submarine totally annihilated, the worse is I had reinforcement but all happened in first turn, reinforcement stacks used all move points despite they did nothing, AI fleet flee before I could do anything. I ended be in rage and started put more care in my fleet and moves, and learn use lure to trap AIs in fleet battles.

But it wasn't a stack of Cruisers, I don't remind well the context, would need load back, and let be clear, how AI is late eras, it was useless just time killing and some good fun.

For Aircraft Carrier, I used them sometimes but more for mobile airport and war support management, to bombard ressources to increase war length, or as mobile airport to ensure have a tool to destroy planes when doing some long range invasion. But again, because of AI late game that deeply derail, it was only for the fun, no real necessity.

EDIT:
And yeah only one Carrier per stack, with the UI used Im' not surprised there's problem with multiple carriers in one stack but never tried, too confusing for the UI.

[Matthew]

What I find odd is in both Endless Space and Endless Legend, the final round of techs take significantly more research yet in HK the final techs still only take 2 turns or so to complete each.

That doesn't solve this 4x issue, but it did make it so there was a bit of a time buffer between late game techs and finishing up the final round which ended the game.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Matthew:

What I find odd is in both Endless Space and Endless Legend, the final round of techs take significantly more research yet in HK the final techs still only take 2 turns or so to complete each.

That doesn't solve this 4x issue, but it did make it so there was a bit of a time buffer between late game techs and finishing up the final round which ended the game.

So you play them all in the same way, interesting. Endless Legend has a very different system if I remind well, with 4 branches that are independents.

What I quote for HK is it allows better move forward through line, so ignore techs thanks to many techs with multiple OR requirements. And I prefer much more than what I remind from civilization. And this is possible only if cost doesn't skyrocket quickly.

So what's make many players end with research a lot too fast, and with whole last era with 2 turns cost for each tech. Not for me, or not since long.

And if it's not for last era then why suddenly last tech is a lot too cheap for some players.

[Matthew]

No, Endless Legend is in a line as well, just like HK. The last ring of techs are very similar to HK with massive boosts to specific yields like gold (dust) or production. If you research all of them, you get a tech victory.

The difference is the lats ring of techs have much, much higher research costs so after you unlocked the last era infrastructure, it still takes quite a while to finish the tech victory. That isn't the case in HK. When you get your last round of infrastructure, the game ends almost immediately.

[EmyLily]

This is just straight up not the case. Id agree if were talking about the contemporary era, but stuff like coal powerplants and sawmills can add hundreds of production to my well developed cities. It's actually quite rare they give less than 100 after all modifiers and will give over 1000 in a lot of cases.
Similarly academy is one of the most important science infrastructures, right bellow universities.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Matthew:

No, Endless Legend is in a line as well, just like HK.

Lol I can't believe it, what's a large circle with 4 quarters? Something more like civics?

Originally posted by Matthew:

The difference is the lats ring of techs have much, much higher research costs so after you unlocked the last era infrastructure, it still takes quite a while to finish the tech victory. That isn't the case in HK. When you get your last round of infrastructure, the game ends almost immediately.

Mmm my systematic last era strategy, or almost systematic, is prepare last research in prev era, so once I start last era then rush get the bonus boost the most suited to my current context or global strategy, such change would remove the option. But if that's just the fix needed, those last 6 tech, then I'm fine have them quite different. But this would need adapt the fame system to avoid make science a dead/weak choice for fame specialization focus.