Suggestion: make poison stop healing

[ADze]

Hi. A quick suggestion: maybe poison should stop healing. I think, it will help with some flaws of the game.
First, right now poison is IMO one of the weaker status effects. Fire illuminates, therefore reduces damage you get, electricity deal damage and incinerates enemies, but is more difficult to achieve, dark damage synergises with everything and allows darkness starts. Poison is slow enough, it slugs fights more, but not only that. You deal your poison damage, wait for an enemy to die, and nearby healer just stops you in your tracks - how many times I was frustrated by that. With healing blocked you at least have more incentives to use it - and more strats to explore.
Second, Snake avatar fight. Right now there is no chance of you winning that fight, if you don't have high enough dps or if you haven't master it enough to make his jumps kill its summons. With poison stopping healing it becomes possible, you can get poison weapon in a course of the run even in the worst case scenario after visiting some weapon stops.
So these are my thoughts, what do you guys think?

[LL Cheese Z]

I can support this. Especially for the broken Snake Avatar fight. The most simultaneously boring and frustrating fight in the game, imo. Somehow.

[Fortytudo]

Snake avatar is a build check. If your build is weak, you shouldnt be able to win unless

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

you master it enough to make his jumps kill its summons

It rewards skill, like the other Avatar fights. Or you can just have a good build.
Personally I think its fine. You arent supposed to win the game with a trash build anyway unless youre a god.

[G o d a n]

Snake Avatar is easier than half of the bosses once you get the hang of it.
He is 10/10 on my bestiary for days, while some other bosses are half of it :(

[Lorska]

Poison weak? What?
The DPS against bosses or anything tanky really is insane.
The reason is hasn't got additional effects on it is that it deals around 4-5 times as much damage as burning because it stacks...
Do healers really need to be trivialized? You are supposed to focus them down anyway.

And all boss restoration mechanics are supposed to be countered, not ignored...

[ADze]

Fortytudo님이 먼저 게시:

Snake avatar is a build check. If your build is weak, you shouldnt be able to win unless

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

you master it enough to make his jumps kill its summons

It rewards skill, like the other Avatar fights. Or you can just have a good build.
Personally I think its fine. You arent supposed to win the game with a trash build anyway unless youre a god.

Weak build shouldn't be about having a high dps. I can maximize Constitution and don't die due to hits, or heal back up by crits, for example. And current snake avatar won't let you by sheer uninteractivity of his healing.

Lorska님이 먼저 게시:

Poison weak? What?
The DPS against bosses or anything tanky really is insane.
The reason is hasn't got additional effects on it is that it deals around 4-5 times as much damage as burning because it stacks...
Do healers really need to be trivialized? You are supposed to focus them down anyway.

And all boss restoration mechanics are supposed to be countered, not ignored...

Poison deals half your weapon damage, but if crit builds do that instantly, poison does it over time, and poison weapons have less damage than crit ones. So it is just strictly worse.

[ADze]

R e t i r e d님이 먼저 게시:

Snake Avatar is easier than half of the bosses once you get the hang of it.
He is 10/10 on my bestiary for days, while some other bosses are half of it :(

It must be due to your playstyle, trying to having big damage, and it's okay) but current snake avatar limits your build options, with a lot of otherwise strong build you just can't beat it, and it really is frustrating for a lot of players who want to try out different strats, not just "I kill it faster".

[Fortytudo]

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

Weak build shouldn't be about having a high dps. I can maximize Constitution and don't die due to hits, or heal back up by crits, for example. And current snake avatar won't let you by sheer uninteractivity of his healing.

This game is all about dps since the success of your run entirely depends on your weapons. Prolonging the fights is bad for you because that means more chances to get hit and getting hit is the last thing you want in this game apart from a very specific build.

Also poison builds are disgustingly strong if built correctly.

[ADze]

Fortytudo님이 먼저 게시:

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

Weak build shouldn't be about having a high dps. I can maximize Constitution and don't die due to hits, or heal back up by crits, for example. And current snake avatar won't let you by sheer uninteractivity of his healing.

This game is all about dps since the success of your run entirely depends on your weapons. Prolonging the fights is bad for you because that means more chances to get hit and getting hit is the last thing you want in this game apart from a very specific build.

Also poison builds are disgustingly strong if built correctly.

No it isn't. There are traps, which become easier with stamina=ability to dodge or Constitution to endure mistakes, there is curse management, gold management and picking better items for your situation via perception, all of this are strats for all other portions of game except avatar fights. And I as a player am ok with sacrificing avatar difficulty to get easier pass in other areas. But with snake this exchange leads to you being strictly unable to beat the boss (unless you are a God of this game), and nowhere else game tells you that. It could have a game over screen on snake avatar fight if I have less than 20 dex for all I care.

[Fortytudo]

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

No it isn't.

It is. Just like with any other roguelike, this is a game about the most efficient way of dispatching your enemies. Theres a reason why some weapons have stat % scaling and are the best weapons in the game. Your choice of stat focus should only affect what weapon you choose with Perception having the daggers and Constitution having claws.

The game itself encourages quick dispatching of enemies via Greed meter and them having healers. Also it has an incredibly good parry mechanic which also makes enemies die faster. So you are expected to stay and fight constantly instead of dodging around. Also the game expects you to have flawless runs even counting the perfect rooms and the amount of parries.

Of course, you can play the game the way you want, but dont complain about having troubles with it after that.

[ADze]

Fortytudo님이 먼저 게시:

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

No it isn't.

It is. Just like with any other roguelike, this is a game about the most efficient way of dispatching your enemies. Theres a reason why some weapons have stat % scaling and are the best weapons in the game. Your choice of stat focus should only affect what weapon you choose with Perception having the daggers and Constitution having claws.

First of all, any other roguelikes? Like spelunky, dungeon crawl stone soup? Darkest dungeon? If you mean action roguelikes, well there is Noita, enter the gungeon is in a lot of ways about exploration. So no, that's not a given.
Second, if all stats are needed only to increase damage, then you should have three different styles of dex, not health and money gain in stats. Game encourages me to pick them up only to lead me to last boss and tell me "you failed" because... Why exactly?
Flawless runs and parries are higher up in the learning curve, than encounter with snake avatar. And in that moment game basically says "what you thought of me, your perseption of viable strats and variety can go to hell, I have other plans". And it is extremely frustrating and makes you not wanna play anymore.

[Fortytudo]

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

Darkest dungeon?

The most optimal team composition(again, to kill things faster).

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

there is Noita

The most optimal Wand build to kill enemies and not kill yourself in the process.

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

enter the gungeon is in a lot of ways about exploration.

Exploration does not cancells out the main purpose of the game - kill enemies, win the game. If you cant do that efficiently enough - you lose, simple as that.

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

Second, if all stats are needed only to increase damage, then you should have three different styles of dex, not health and money gain in stats.

Weapons with Perception&Constitution % scaling exist so you can actualy use them lategame without relying on Dex. You can focus on Constitution AND have a decent damage like I have in this build.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2413210741

You can focus on HP to have more room for making mistakes or to be able to farm gold with a specific build.

You can focus on Perception to have better relics and weapons.

You can focus on raw damage boost to be able to use any weapon you want.

But at the end of the day - damage is all that matters and if you dont have enough to kill summons in time - you lose. There is no other mechanic for you to get rid of enemies except traps(which are unreliable and dont work with bosses).

[ADze]

Fortytudo님이 먼저 게시:

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

Darkest dungeon?

The most optimal team composition(again, to kill things faster).

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

there is Noita

The most optimal Wand build to kill enemies and not kill yourself in the process.

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

enter the gungeon is in a lot of ways about exploration.

Exploration does not cancells out the main purpose of the game - kill enemies, win the game. If you cant do that efficiently enough - you lose, simple as that.

In darkest dungeon your heroes fatigue, so you always can't have optimal team, and game is always about a risk/reward ratio in expeditions with options you now have available, also you have to level them up so you can't always go to highest level of competition possible.
In Noita, a lot of wand compositions will obliterate anything in their way, and you only have to not be there) So that's not a "dps check", again, it's a risk-reward management.

A lot of players find enter the gungeon appealing not because "look, I can kill enemies", but because "wow, there's so much stuff...", IMO. Tons of secrets, unique unlockables etc. And my pain with curse is there's a lot of stuff, but it won't let you utilize it. And Snake avatar is the icing on the cake of frustration. Curse could develop into the game of exploration of temple possessed by dark forces, thematically it's there, a lot of pieces are. Hades is a game about exploration, with it's unique story and acting. I gave up on Hades after 2nd skelly statue and full true ending - assuming I enjoyed my share of content and won't get more with enough ease that I would enjoy it.

I get the perspective of a player optimising enemy deaths per second, and don't diminish it. It lets you play smoothly, I agree. But this game could appeal to way more players if you only bring down "dps paywall", and allow, not encourage, only allow, with penalties even, more strats to be viable.

[Fortytudo]

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

I get the perspective of a player optimising enemy deaths per second, and don't diminish it. It let's you play smoothly, I agree. But this game could appeal to way more players if you only bring down "dps paywall", and allow, not encourage, only allow, with penalties even, more strats to be viable.

There are a couple of different viable strats, at least 3 - one for each stat. But in the game that revolves around you getting stronger in order to defeat the Champion of Death its a given you have to be efficient at killing. Also theres no real exploration in CotDG as the rooms have very little variations and dont contain anything except gold, chests and altars.

[pi73r]

Dr. Cheesesteak님이 먼저 게시:

I can support this. Especially for the broken Snake Avatar fight. The most simultaneously boring and frustrating fight in the game, imo. Somehow.

Frustrating? I did it on my 1st attempt (so I didn't even know his mechanics and attacks) without a sweat. All his attacks are telegraphed you either must be really new to gaming or have a reflex of a 70 year old. This is the easiest boss fight of this tier,
Also I was actually on a stamina build so my dps wasn't anything great.
Stop making every game an ez mode good for casuals only. Instead of complaining about stuff what about spending that time to git gud? This way we keep getting boring games which require no skill to do on hard which still get advertised as "hardcore" (like mentioned darkest dungeon).
Edit: Unless you meant how frustratingly easy his attacks are to dodge and I misunderstood something, then sorry.

[Lorska]

ADze님이 먼저 게시:

Poison deals half your weapon damage, but if crit builds do that instantly, poison does it over time, and poison weapons have less damage than crit ones. So it is just strictly worse.

Wait a second there.
Your reason for giving it an extra effect is because you compare it to other status effects. NOT crits.
By that logic, lightning and burning are also trash and should also get extra effects because they can't compare to crit damage-wise.
Fire: illumination and dot (low dmg)
Lightning: instant damage + delayed fire (medium dmg)
Poison: stacking dot (high dmg)

Not to mention to get crit to work you also need to actually crit and universal 100% chance to crit for every weapon is a little difficult to get. Especially every run.