170 hours of Replicant + guidebooks & wikis & shiiii and...

[vkus-o4ka]

That's it. I give up. I just should accept this catastrophic disenchantment, it's silly to resist the truth.

Automata was that much of a magnificent game I've had enough of it in me for unbelievably wretched Drakengard, but at least there was an actual interesting story. But Replicant - nah, c'mon, that's it. I swear I never saw any other such disgustingly compiled plot with tens of vast gaping holes like this. I'm actually not so interested in the 8th grade chrestomathy morals about "people who kill the place they live in", "ignorant atrocity", "vendettas" and "bodyshaming isn't cool" to endure (there are lots of other anime for 12yo after all). And beside of this - there is NOTHING. There is no story itself, actually: all this Zelda bullstuff was a theatre of two bipolar plotholes which guide us to the Shadowlord's Castle, then drive us off the Shadowlord's Castle, then let us in the Shadowlord's Castle, then try to kill us in the Shadowlord's Castle; the stupid protagonist never got a thing of it, everyone perished, no conclusion. The information value is about zero.

"So, the shades are the people, and we kill it" - f.ck-me-not, a thought so deep as the puddle in my yard, totally worth to be overacted through 4 replays. So what? Can we put an end to this? Will the protagonist understand it? And, excusee moi, just for me to keep up to this importantest thought: who do we kill in the Aerie? People? Shades? Replicants? Have replicants been replaced by shades? Were shades disguised as replicants? Two of those things were merged without grimoires? Were the Aerie folks shades all along or that onion thing converted them, or that onion thing was a Power Rangers style giant Optimus Prime they've united in to bit my ass up, or...

Oh, here, Kaine has a deck lolz friends now, so she swings her sword on purpose now. Hello?.. I mean: this guy, here, just has doomed the humanity to extinction murdering the only stable gestalt, who is Kaine on the scale of this event? So she has a relapse - is she a gestalt, or is it Tyrann's relapse; AND she has black scrawl - because of her wherever-is-it-if-any-existing gestalt relapsing or because of Tyrann, and if so, why is Tyrann (here we try to ignore an obvious elephant: who the f.ck is Tyrann?) sane and conscious if relapse makes gestalts loose their sentience*? I mean, the thing I should worry about? Maybe she's fine that way, maybe I'll kiss her and she'll turn into a beautiful frog, how should I know which way it works in this mess of controversial concepts? The game tells me "no matter dude, you should just be sorry to lose her, that's all, no matter what".

And of course, even after all I've been through, I still need to "save" Yonah. That Yonah clone I could obtain if ask Devola and Popola nicely, I guess... What number of Yonah is she over 1500 years? And by the way: the clones. How and where exactly do "they" make them all the time? Do replicants just rebirth themselves or does some giant stork called Popola bring babies to them, and they go like never notice? WHERE ARE THE TEST TUBES LENNY - come on, the devs just dropped their own universe undone, you should do it yourself, speculating prooflessly.

What's with the gestalts? They are the unique human soul entities, exist around 1500 years, so why are someone of them are still children with childish consciousness? How some gestalts came to be giant monsters? Anyway, shouldn't they be, like, sleeping in stasis or smthn, why are they free-roaming around, being exposed to the dangerous environment - replicants, boars... sun... I mean, yeah, they're called "shades" by those medieval-level replicants, but why do the human souls are actually vulnerable to the sun? Is "Shadowlord's Castle" even an actual place or is it that stasis thing like we see some symbolical dream of transcendent protagonist's gestalt from the metaphysical memories in a pocket space etc.? Yonah (* whose replicant has black scrawl which should mean she's relapsed which should mean she's lost her mind which just didn't happen) comes to the sunlight, and her soul flies away... Wow, f.ck, that was strong, everybody cries... So. What. Should. It. Mean >:| People can't go out to the sunlight after their soul return to the body? People are vampires now?

Damn, I never asked to put me through the whole chronology of this universe (though guidebooks actually do the thing and it's fine, though they open even more cans of worms, without clarifications of these lousy moments from the main plot), just a little explicitness should be fine. They overcomplicated the whole concept beyond possible, stretched the timeline for thousands of years... for nothing? Really, is lore so meaningless, and I'm just overthinking about it and turn the wrong stones? The lore of this game sooo doesn't exist they needed three guidebooks (incl 2 Automata's) to put something in it! Gad, forget the lore, just make the story work with itself in its own rules at least...

Why has Automata became such a GAME compared to this, why its plot is inclusive, conclusive and makes sense, using the same patterns, ideas and everything? I mean, if you put it that way - it's the same replicant story where androids and machines use the cultural and moral codes of the same people they were based on, repeating some Replicant's situations or reacting according to that fact... Which makes Automata even more profound. And makes nothing of Replicant, because no cycle-clone-bladerunner-crap exposition was given there. So congrats, the whole separate original game, you're a nice booklet for your sequel...

[spy]

<3

[Nico Nico Knee]

so tldr you couldnt pay attention and are angry?

[vkus-o4ka]

Originally posted by Dr.Chaimsaw™:

so tldr you couldnt pay attention and are angry?

So you "dr", but write like you've got something to say?

[vkus-o4ka]

UPD: Grimoire Nier makes a note that gestalts "begin waking up" around some time before game events, which can point that they've all been asleep as Yonah's, so they weren't relapsing, therefore - children's consciousness wasn't developing, and that's why Kalil & others are naive with no life experience (then what about Shadowlord becoming mature Nier over five year in-game gap, but not in 1400 years before, or Emil, who's just like eternal human -- oh, me, don't even start...) Also it confirms that shades can merge into a giant monsterlike shade, losing its personality - well ok, though why anyway...

And DevolaPopola actually produced new bodies every time, and replicants are sterile (though they aware of concept of sexuality just... I don't know, copying human behavior?) Then why not just making other clones that'd be total soulless vessels for their gestalts, moreover - why do they need "extract genetic information from gestalts to make replicants, then return replicant's information back to gestalts"? Couldn't they get it one time to reproduce clones based on it so prevent getting "bugged" genes from the relapsed gestalts (which is Yona's unique case btw)? Don't know, still the game world looks like replicants are scarce and dying out, and shades are spawning all around, though the conflict could look more naturally in opposite. Well, at least let's pretend that those shades in The Aerie and that mask girl were sentient gestalts that relapsed as we see it - becoming "shady" things. If it so, well ok, though it's another example of poor representation. And I wouldn't think Kalil or that "mother" shade inthe Castle were NOT sentient, though...

And the ending and consequences. There was something about other regions where Popodevolas have managed to convince replicants to accept their gestalts before game events. Which breaks the whole thing again. Have they merge without grimoires? And, since they're complete reproductive (oops, speculation) humans, the humanity could survive right up to alien invasion, which appears only 7 years since the game, in Automata. Though the guide itself notes that without Shadowlord the humanity is doomed to extinction. And the ending E - that, in some manner, paid the game off for me after those useless 4 runs of the previous - is not a canonical one.

Man, if you think I write a lot, I know a guy who had made 5 hours of video about The Evil Within flaws and stupidities, and The Evil Within looked more harmonious and complete...

[c1K]

Do you also watch Zulin's Vlog? :D
Overall, all of the points you've made are somewhat valid, provided you know the lore(which I don't), and I'm still working my way through the endings C to E.
However, one thing you've got wrong, is that the original game was released BEFORE Automata. Automata had to work with whatever Nier:Gestalt(EU/NA) &| Nier:Replicant(JP) had left a decade-ish ago.

[c1K]

I'm looking forward to seeing more updates from you haha

[vkus-o4ka]

Originally posted by c1K:

Do you also watch Zulin's Vlog? :D
Overall, all of the points you've made are somewhat valid, provided you know the lore(which I don't), and I'm still working my way through the endings C to E.
However, one thing you've got wrong, is that the original game was released BEFORE Automata. Automata had to work with whatever Nier:Gestalt(EU/NA) &| Nier:Replicant(JP) had left a decade-ish ago.

Yep, been watching him lol ...Probably so did Game Kitchen, 'cause after that Blasphemous review, they've fixed exactly those things Zulin was complaining about, curiously...

I've put it correctly (did I?): Automata followed Replicant 7 years after...

Don't know, I was just trying to figure out things operating with some official information. Also kinda expecting that some mega Taro-logist will poke my nose into the parts claryfying these confusions... But if you google those flaws, like about "Devola & Popola guarding Castle" situation, you'd find only "I believe it's because" this , "Probably it means" that, "But I played it 50 years ago so not sure" etc., which is frustranting because I had no lesser faith in this game than those fans. But I cannot tell the director's plot composition from unfinished gaping script, so I gave my faith up, sadly. Very-very sadly, it's not that Silent Hill kind of story - where everything is on purpose, has some meaning and all that.

[c1K]

Originally posted by Sosiska:

Originally posted by c1K:

Do you also watch Zulin's Vlog? :D
Overall, all of the points you've made are somewhat valid, provided you know the lore(which I don't), and I'm still working my way through the endings C to E.
However, one thing you've got wrong, is that the original game was released BEFORE Automata. Automata had to work with whatever Nier:Gestalt(EU/NA) &| Nier:Replicant(JP) had left a decade-ish ago.

Yep, been watching him lol ...Probably so did Game Kitchen, 'cause after that Blasphemous review, they've fixed exactly those things Zulin was complaining about, curiously...

I've put it correctly (did I?): Automata followed Replicant 7 years after...

Don't know, I was just trying to figure out things operating with some official information. Also kinda expecting that some mega Taro-logist will poke my nose into the parts claryfying these confusions... But if you google those flaws, like about "Devola & Popola guarding Castle" situation, you'd find only "I believe it's because" this , "Probably it means" that, "But I played it 50 years ago so not sure" etc., which is frustranting because I had no lesser faith in this game than those fans. But I cannot tell the director's plot composition from unfinished gaping script, so I gave my faith up, sadly. Very-very sadly, it's not that Silent Hill kind of story - where everything is on purpose, has some meaning and all that.

Ah, I missed the 7 years part in your UPD/response.
The original post paints it as if "Automata is superior, but came out earlier than Replicant". It's just me messing it up, not you.

[Max]

imagine having 170 hours get a life dude

[vkus-o4ka]

Originally posted by re("(?-i)\bxmaxrayx\b",_str_??0):

imagine having 170 hours get a life dude

You don't have 170 hours for your occupations? Too bad, bro.

[Derriere]

Originally posted by Sosiska:

Don't know, I was just trying to figure out things operating with some official information. Also kinda expecting that some mega Taro-logist will poke my nose into the parts claryfying these confusions...

Hi, Taro-logist speaking, I'd love to answer some questions or at least point you in the direction of a plot point you're lost on, but it's kinda difficult to parse your walls of text that are more expressions of your frustration at the lack of clarity than questions being asked. Could you be more concise in which parts you want some clarification on?

As for why Automata's story feels more "complete" inclusive and conclusive, here are my thoughts: Automata had the benefit of coming out years later and I assume that means Yoko Taro had more time to figure out what he wanted this weird-ass universe to be, there were lots of materials that came out after the release of Gestalt/Replicant that filled in gaps that didn't make it into the game (the entire Little Mermaid sidequest in Seafront was not in the original game, for example, and was instead a short story)
Automata also had the benefit of being a game developed by Platinum Games, which made for a tighter experience and scope as an action game.
By comparison, the original Nier Gestalt/Replicant from 2010 was developed by Cavia, and to be completely honest, Cavia's games were kinda cramp - pretty much every game Yoko Taro worked on before Automata was.... not great in terms of gameplay. Playing the original Drakengard today is not far off from psychological torture. The original Nier was clunky and grindy and half baked in terms of mechanics and the world of that game is incredible small for budget reasons. I loved that game but it sure was a bad time occasionally, I was only in it for the plot.
Yoko Taro isn't trying to pull a JRR Tolkien thing here, he's not attempting to build a fictional world with realistic history and real language and iron-clad logic like the Lord of the Rings universe. I kinda get the feeling, after following his work for over a decade, that this guy writes his stories for taking loose threads of his universe and having fun with it, and writing for emotional masochists with silly plot like "wouldnt it be ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up if you realized that your enemy were actually innocent beings trying to get by?" "what if your entire purpose for revenge was pointless?" "what if this android with a sexy ass who is your coworker was secretly sent specifically to kill you if you got too close to the truth?". I think it takes a kind of madness to be into this guy's works, you kinda gotta be a freak to fall down the rabbit hole and accept that in some cases you might not get the answer for years and when you do it'll be a single line in a short story or a slideshow from a live concert or stage play or gacha game that's about to get shut down.


Btw, Automata has plenty of "lore/plot holes" the side of Replicant's, but they're less glaring and fit in better with the much-expanded (or were already explained by prior material). For example, why is there a german-style medieval castle in the middle of the ruins of post-apocalyptic japan that was implied to be dedicated to the cult from Drakengard? (no clue!) What the ♥♥♥♥ is the kingdom of night mentioned in both games? (we kinda have an answer to this one!)

In short, I think Yoko Taro is just havin' fun with it so expecting clear answers might be like tilting at windmills. Anyhow, what do you wanna know?

[vkus-o4ka]

Originally posted by Derriere:

Yoko Taro isn't trying to pull a JRR Tolkien thing here, he's not attempting to build a fictional world with realistic history and real language and iron-clad logic like the Lord of the Rings universe.

Totally ok with it, the problem is - the concepts don't work with themselves, they contradict and cancel each other.

So, why Devola and Popola have been searching Shadowlord for five years (coming from their dialogue about "finally locate the Shadowlord") if they knew about his "castle" and had an access to it (coming from the fact, they came there before Nier)?
Why did they try to drive off Nier at first, then "approve" him for entering?
Why do they need to "retrieve the data" from the deceased Replicants to their Gestalts every time, and why do they use the corrupt data of slowly relapsing Gestalt to produce Replicant instead of using the original... idk, "data sample"? Coming from the fact, that only the Replicants produced with corrupted data have Black Scrawl, except Yonah who was corrupted originally.
Why hadn't Gestalt Nier "grown up" in 1400 years - ok, PROBABLY other child/teenage Gestalts were in sleep mode until recently. And like what, had he really been waiting all this damn time and then gone all over a rebellion?))
Why couldn't Emil petrify the shade's head, the Shadowlord, the anything instead of waiting the library fight's outcome? Ok, it's more about holes in the plot, not in concepts, but...
Am I right seeing the Aerie & the desert girl situations as sentient Gestalts - therefore of human appearance? If so, then why do they start relapsing like from nothing? If not, then wtf are they at all?
And if there were places where Popodevola could persuade Replicants to accept their Gestalts - as the guidebook states - then why had humanity extinct nevertheless?

And yes: "I believe it's...", "I think it's...", "probably..." - are not answers.

[Kai]

Originally posted by Sosiska:

Originally posted by Derriere:

Yoko Taro isn't trying to pull a JRR Tolkien thing here, he's not attempting to build a fictional world with realistic history and real language and iron-clad logic like the Lord of the Rings universe.

Totally ok with it, the problem is - the concepts don't work with themselves, they contradict and cancel each other.

So, why Devola and Popola have been searching Shadowlord for five years (coming from their dialogue about "finally locate the Shadowlord") if they knew about his "castle" and had an access to it (coming from the fact, they came there before Nier)?
Why did they try to drive off Nier at first, then "approve" him for entering?
Why do they need to "retrieve the data" from the deceased Replicants to their Gestalts every time, and why do they use the corrupt data of slowly relapsing Gestalt to produce Replicant instead of using the original... idk, "data sample"? Coming from the fact, that only the Replicants produced with corrupted data have Black Scrawl, except Yonah who was corrupted originally.
Why hadn't Gestalt Nier "grown up" in 1400 years - ok, PROBABLY other child/teenage Gestalts were in sleep mode until recently. And like what, had he really been waiting all this damn time and then gone all over a rebellion?))
Why couldn't Emil petrify the shade's head, the Shadowlord, the anything instead of waiting the library fight's outcome? Ok, it's more about holes in the plot, not in concepts, but...
Am I right seeing the Aerie & the desert girl situations as sentient Gestalts - therefore of human appearance? If so, then why do they start relapsing like from nothing? If not, then wtf are they at all?
And if there were places where Popodevola could persuade Replicants to accept their Gestalts - as the guidebook states - then why had humanity extinct nevertheless?

And yes: "I believe it's...", "I think it's...", "probably..." - are not answers.

- Devola and Popola couldn't access Gestalt Nier's castle, they only could the moment he removed the seal, they just got there fasther than him because they flew there, that's why they encouraged him to get the keys during the second half of the game.
- I thought this was clear already, but they tried to drive him off because they don't want to fight him.
- They don't retrieve the data of deceased Replicants, they are just dead and are not used for anything. New Replicants are born from their Gestalts DNA. Neither "only Replicants produced with corrupted data have Black Scrawl." Relapsed Gestalt = Black Scrawled Replicant. That means that it doesn't matters if a Gestalt relapsed when their Replicant was already there, they don't magically avoids getting Black Scrawl.
I don't really understand what you tried to say, they are actually using their original data sample, but it's corrupted and the Gestalts are relapsed, there's not any kind of backup or something, you may notice that Project Gestalt was such a messy things that it wasn't really well designed overall, and that is due to what mankind was fighting: Both WCS and Legion War.
- Gestalts doesn't grown up. This is a small detailed explained in the 12020 Orquesta, but this Gestalt specifically was taking the "physical appaerance" of his Replicant because they were "sharing" the same dreams, and that's how he knew what his Replicant was experiencing. And he didn't revealed out of nowhere, he waited 1.400 years because they promised Yonah would be cured when the Project Gestalts succesfully ends; but when the whole Relapsing thing was getting out of control, he knew he had to act, because he was getting more and more out of time.
- Take in mind that even if Emil could petrify a lot of them, he would still be killed because there were just so many of them, that's why instead he went all the way to Nier's village to warn out everyone.
- Succesfully merging with a Replicant body doesn't makes you invulnerable to relapsing, that's why the last resort was using the White and Black Grimoires forced fusion code.
- Because when the Original Gestalt, Nier, died, he stopped providing his maso that made him (and all of them) more unlikely to get relapsed. Because of this, every Gestalt, sooner or later was going to relapse, driving mankind to extinction, even when some Devola and Popola completed their task.

[Akkarin]

Originally posted by Kai:

Originally posted by Sosiska:

Totally ok with it, the problem is - the concepts don't work with themselves, they contradict and cancel each other.

So, why Devola and Popola have been searching Shadowlord for five years (coming from their dialogue about "finally locate the Shadowlord") if they knew about his "castle" and had an access to it (coming from the fact, they came there before Nier)?
Why did they try to drive off Nier at first, then "approve" him for entering?
Why do they need to "retrieve the data" from the deceased Replicants to their Gestalts every time, and why do they use the corrupt data of slowly relapsing Gestalt to produce Replicant instead of using the original... idk, "data sample"? Coming from the fact, that only the Replicants produced with corrupted data have Black Scrawl, except Yonah who was corrupted originally.
Why hadn't Gestalt Nier "grown up" in 1400 years - ok, PROBABLY other child/teenage Gestalts were in sleep mode until recently. And like what, had he really been waiting all this damn time and then gone all over a rebellion?))
Why couldn't Emil petrify the shade's head, the Shadowlord, the anything instead of waiting the library fight's outcome? Ok, it's more about holes in the plot, not in concepts, but...
Am I right seeing the Aerie & the desert girl situations as sentient Gestalts - therefore of human appearance? If so, then why do they start relapsing like from nothing? If not, then wtf are they at all?
And if there were places where Popodevola could persuade Replicants to accept their Gestalts - as the guidebook states - then why had humanity extinct nevertheless?

And yes: "I believe it's...", "I think it's...", "probably..." - are not answers.

- Devola and Popola couldn't access Gestalt Nier's castle, they only could the moment he removed the seal, they just got there fasther than him because they flew there, that's why they encouraged him to get the keys during the second half of the game.
- I thought this was clear already, but they tried to drive him off because they don't want to fight him.
- They don't retrieve the data of deceased Replicants, they are just dead and are not used for anything. New Replicants are born from their Gestalts DNA. Neither "only Replicants produced with corrupted data have Black Scrawl." Relapsed Gestalt = Black Scrawled Replicant. That means that it doesn't matters if a Gestalt relapsed when their Replicant was already there, they don't magically avoids getting Black Scrawl.
I don't really understand what you tried to say, they are actually using their original data sample, but it's corrupted and the Gestalts are relapsed, there's not any kind of backup or something, you may notice that Project Gestalt was such a messy things that it wasn't really well designed overall, and that is due to what mankind was fighting: Both WCS and Legion War.
- Gestalts doesn't grown up. This is a small detailed explained in the 12020 Orquesta, but this Gestalt specifically was taking the "physical appaerance" of his Replicant because they were "sharing" the same dreams, and that's how he knew what his Replicant was experiencing. And he didn't revealed out of nowhere, he waited 1.400 years because they promised Yonah would be cured when the Project Gestalts succesfully ends; but when the whole Relapsing thing was getting out of control, he knew he had to act, because he was getting more and more out of time.
- Take in mind that even if Emil could petrify a lot of them, he would still be killed because there were just so many of them, that's why instead he went all the way to Nier's village to warn out everyone.
- Succesfully merging with a Replicant body doesn't makes you invulnerable to relapsing, that's why the last resort was using the White and Black Grimoires forced fusion code.
- Because when the Original Gestalt, Nier, died, he stopped providing his maso that made him (and all of them) more unlikely to get relapsed. Because of this, every Gestalt, sooner or later was going to relapse, driving mankind to extinction, even when some Devola and Popola completed their task.

Thank you for your insight, I got a few more questions for you if you don't mind me asking:
1)Did it ever get explained anywhere what exactly happens when a non-relapsed replicant dies? Would be a little weird if Jeffrey dies and just suddenly comes back to the village the next day.
2)Ending E spoilers!
Do Kainé and Nier get to life happily ever after at the end at least? Or is the black scrawl gonna get them too? No idea what Ending E implies..

Bonus question that is probably impossible to answer: Shouldn't replicants be very aware of what they are? Considering they were probably "born" in artifical wombs or something?