Question about December 4th

[Forblaze]

So we're interrogating Namatame about the murders. He said he didn't do it and coincidentally involved himself in the midnight channel at a pace pretty much identical to our own. The first person he threw into the TV was yukiko, who was the first person to not die. He said he was suspicious that the TV world was actually dangerous, and Naoto confirms this by saying that people still in the TV world when the fog comes again die.

But isn't this actually unknown to Naoto? My reasoning is

1) Anyone after Saki dying is a game over, so it's non-canon

2) People appear on the midnight channel before they're thrown in, so being in the TV isn't a requisite to be on the midnight channel

3) it was Namatame throwing everyone that we can confirm were in the TV in the TV, not the person doing the murders

4) Saki and Mayumi weren't thrown in by Namatame, so we don't know that they were actually in the TV world when they died

5) This one's a bit weak, but we never actually witness any shadows kill anyone. We assume they're dangerous, but the bosses especially don't actually attack the person they come from.

Am I missing something or is this an error on Naoto's part? For all we should know, being in the TV would stop them from being murdered. Or at the very least, any deaths in the TV world would be coincidental and not caused by the murderer.

[bad_fur_day1]

I don't recall the details of this case, inspector. I felt being shown on the midnight channel was like a premonition of what's going to happen.

[Nibbie]

You know she can talk to the other members of the team, right?

"Listen up, 'cause people have died in our world... Every time the fog appears, a dead body shows up with it. It has to be related to this place somehow! If you know something, tell us!"
"A dead body? Whenever the fog appears...? I know that if it's foggy on your side, the fog lifts here. It's really dangerous when the fog lifts. That's when the Shadows get violent... That's why I said to hurry back! It's dangerous when that happens!"
-Yosuke and Teddie on 4/15.

"The fog does lift here sometimes. The Shadows get really violent then... I sensed people here twice before. But both of them disappeared after the fog lifted..."
-Teddie on 4/15

[Forblaze]

Автор сообщения: bad_fur_day1

I don't recall the details of this case, inspector. I felt being shown on the midnight channel was like a premonition of what's going to happen.

The problem is the reveal that Namatame kidnapped everyone from Yukiko on. It creates two separate sets of incidents, and we only started involving ourselves from Yukiko on.

Автор сообщения: Nibbie

"Listen up, 'cause people have died in our world... Every time the fog appears, a dead body shows up with it. It has to be related to this place somehow! If you know something, tell us!"
"A dead body? Whenever the fog appears...? I know that if it's foggy on your side, the fog lifts here. It's really dangerous when the fog lifts. That's when the Shadows get violent... That's why I said to hurry back! It's dangerous when that happens!"
-Yosuke and Teddie on 4/15.

We know that someone dies when the fog appears, but this doesn't necessarily equate to the person needing to be in the TV world to die or that that's the only condition.

Автор сообщения: Nibbie

"The fog does lift here sometimes. The Shadows get really violent then... I sensed people here twice before. But both of them disappeared after the fog lifted..."
-Teddie on 4/15

But the nature of what's happening to them is now no longer known, since the person that put them into the TV is different for Yukiko-Nanako than Mayumi-Saki.

[Vali Riversong]

It does not create two separate instances because Namatame witnessed both Miyumi and Saki being on the TV, which we've established he did not throw them into it. People appear on the TV before they go missing. Namatame was manipulated by the true killer to throw people into the TV. People are dying under mysterious circumstances after disappearing, but are confirmed to have been in the TV world when they went missing. Further more Teddie confirms that they were there, and also confirms that Shadows get very violent and would attack anyone they saw who didn't belong there, so their deaths are from the TV world. The Investigation Team prevents Yukiko and onward from dying due to their investigation and ability to use Personas allowing them to intervene and prevent any more murders, had they not then Yukiko and others would've died as well.

[Forblaze]

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

It does not create two separate instances because Namatame witnessed both Miyumi and Saki being on the TV, which we've established he did not throw them into it. People appear on the TV before they go missing. Namatame was manipulated by the true killer to throw people into the TV. People are dying under mysterious circumstances after disappearing, but are confirmed to have been in the TV world when they went missing. Further more Teddie confirms that they were there, and also confirms that Shadows get very violent and would attack anyone they saw who didn't belong there, so their deaths are from the TV world. The Investigation Team prevents Yukiko and onward from dying due to their investigation and ability to use Personas allowing them to intervene and prevent any more murders, had they not then Yukiko and others would've died as well.

It does create two separate sets. We know Namatame was throwing people in and doing nothing else because he tells us as such. We don't know that Saki and Miyumi's murderers *weren't* doing something with them. We also don't know that that person wanted Namatame to do what he did, so he may not necessarily be trying to follow up on him throwing them into the TV.

[Vali Riversong]

Автор сообщения: Forblaze

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

It does not create two separate instances because Namatame witnessed both Miyumi and Saki being on the TV, which we've established he did not throw them into it. People appear on the TV before they go missing. Namatame was manipulated by the true killer to throw people into the TV. People are dying under mysterious circumstances after disappearing, but are confirmed to have been in the TV world when they went missing. Further more Teddie confirms that they were there, and also confirms that Shadows get very violent and would attack anyone they saw who didn't belong there, so their deaths are from the TV world. The Investigation Team prevents Yukiko and onward from dying due to their investigation and ability to use Personas allowing them to intervene and prevent any more murders, had they not then Yukiko and others would've died as well.

It does create two separate sets. We know Namatame was throwing people in and doing nothing else because he tells us as such. We don't know that Saki and Miyumi's murderers *weren't* doing something with them. We also don't know that that person wanted Namatame to do what he did, so he may not necessarily be trying to follow up on him throwing them into the TV.

The person that manipulated him knew full damn well what was going on and what the end result was going to be. It's made explicitly clear why the killer did what they did.

[Forblaze]

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

The person that manipulated him knew full damn well what was going on and what the end result was going to be. It's made explicitly clear why the killer did what they did.

You're applying future knowledge retroactively.

[Vali Riversong]

Автор сообщения: Forblaze

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

The person that manipulated him knew full damn well what was going on and what the end result was going to be. It's made explicitly clear why the killer did what they did.

You're applying future knowledge retroactively.

Because in a story, things are explained later on.

[Forblaze]

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

Because in a story, things are explained later on.

Characters aren't supposed to know things that aren't explained until later on. A lack of omniscience is actually a pretty common source of conflict in storytelling.

[Vali Riversong]

Автор сообщения: Forblaze

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

Because in a story, things are explained later on.

Characters aren't supposed to know things that aren't explained until later on. A lack of omniscience is actually a pretty common source of conflict in storytelling.

The team isn't omnipresent. The characters themselves have slowly pieced together what is going on within the logic of the TV World. The game shows many scenes of them getting together and discussing what they know of the case so far. People can enter the TV world, and when the fog clears the Shadows go berserk and kill anyone who isn't supposed to be there. Teddie confirms this, Teddie confirmed that Saki and Myumi were there but lost sense of them. This confirms they had died in the TV world. We objectively do see Shadows attack people, they've been doing it every single dungeon of this game, and the only reason they dont attack who they come from is because the Investigation Team physically stands in between them to protect the person while they are weak. Teddie literally outright states that people's own Shadows attack themselves when denied. The true killer confirms they knew that leaving someone in the TV would lead to their deaths and even admits they did the second victim intentionally, and then manipulated Namatame into doing the rest of the victims. These are not two separate instances, they're the same case so the same logic and rules apply. Even if they were two separate cases, they're both taking place within the same TV World, so the same logic of how the cases would play out follows. It is further figured out that appearing on the TV is a warning to who the next victim is going to be. Namatame admits to witnessing both Myumi and Saki on the Midnight Channel before their kidnapping and death. Every point you have brought up in your starting post, is incorrect and has been shown within game dialogue as so.

[Forblaze]

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

The game shows many scenes of them getting together and discussing what they know of the case so far. People can enter the TV world, and when the fog clears the Shadows go berserk and kill anyone who isn't supposed to be there. Teddie confirms this, Teddie confirmed that Saki and Myumi were there but lost sense of them.

Man, my point is that this new key piece of information should prompt a reexamination of previous assumptions.

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

This confirms they had died in the TV world.

No, it doesn't. It confirms that they were in the TV world and then stopped being in the TV world. Did the murderer re-enter the TV world on that day to murder them? Did the murderer kidnap them and he was there with them the whole time until that day, then murder him? Did the murderer remove them from the TV world and kill them in the real world?

Considering we never actually see what an example of Adachi's murders look like, these are all questions that we no longer have an answer to. That Namatame is behind every single incident you've investigated over the course of the game and is NOT the person we're after creates a huge gap in what we actually know about the mechanics behind them.

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

The true killer confirms they knew that leaving someone in the TV would lead to their deaths

Why are you saying this? We don't know who the killer is on December 4th. I am talking about the logical deduction performed by a character at a specific point in time. Things we (or the characters in question) haven't learned yet are irrelevant.

[Vali Riversong]

Автор сообщения: Forblaze

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

The game shows many scenes of them getting together and discussing what they know of the case so far. People can enter the TV world, and when the fog clears the Shadows go berserk and kill anyone who isn't supposed to be there. Teddie confirms this, Teddie confirmed that Saki and Myumi were there but lost sense of them.

Man, my point is that this new key piece of information should prompt a reexamination of previous assumptions.

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

This confirms they had died in the TV world.

No, it doesn't. It confirms that they were in the TV world and then stopped being in the TV world. Did the murderer re-enter the TV world on that day to murder them? Did the murderer kidnap them and he was there with them the whole time until that day, then murder him? Did the murderer remove them from the TV world and kill them in the real world?

Considering we never actually see what an example of Adachi's murders look like, these are all questions that we no longer have an answer to. That Namatame is behind every single incident you've investigated over the course of the game and is NOT the person we're after creates a huge gap in what we actually know about the mechanics behind them.

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

The true killer confirms they knew that leaving someone in the TV would lead to their deaths

Why are you saying this? We don't know who the killer is on December 4th. I am talking about the logical deduction performed by a character at a specific point in time. Things we (or the characters in question) haven't learned yet are irrelevant.

Teddie literally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ confirms that a person's shadow when rejected will to kill them. Adachi himself had never killed anyone, the shadows did. He only EVER took credit for them to ensure he was able to be tried and convicted for his crimes as there was almost no evidence tying him to anything, but by saying he killed them they can shut the case down. And yes I am aware of the "not knowing the killer on Dec 4th" but even without that context, there is no reason to suspect the rules of the TV world suddenly change based on who threw them in. Being thrown in is not inherently the danger, it's being trapped behind when the fog lifts because the shadows will kill people. There's nothing to re-contextualize.

[Forblaze]

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

Teddie literally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ confirms that a person's shadow when rejected will to kill them.

I just explained why this isn't the case.

Автор сообщения: Vali Riversong

Adachi himself had never killed anyone, the shadows did.

Again, you're applying future knowledge retroactively

[FlyingTorcensoredWhale]

1) We have two victims, that had been thrown in the TV, then appeared outside of the TV in the unlikely places without established causes of death by the forensic teams. Information to which both Naoto and the Team are privy too (former through internal investigation knowledge, latter through Adachi)
2) We have a testimony of the resident of the TV world, that fog lifts in the TV world, when fog appears on the outside.
3) We have a testimony of the resident of the TV world, that shadows become violent and attack anyone they meet, when fog lifts, despite normally only attacking the Persona Users.
4) We have eye witnesses (the Team) of the fact, that when Shadow of the person goes berserk, it severely weakens the person trapped into the TV world, leaving them defenseless.

Is it possible, that instead of shadows going violent and attacking a defenseless person, it's the killer waiting for the exact moment, when the fog would set in and then killing the victims in a way, that makes it impossible to establish cause of death, then moves them to very difficult to access location without being noticed and without leaving any trace for the forensic team? Well, sure, maybe.

Is it likely? No.

Occam's Razor. What is the simpler, more likely explanation for the "unexplained deaths with unknown cause, that leaves the victim hanging from the antenna"? Shadows killing the victim in the shadow world, which later ejects the dead body? Or murderer directly killing the victim and doing all that nonsense?

There's little to no reason to reevaluate the most likely cause of death of the victims.

[mimir-qin]

When fog gathers in the real world, shadows in the TV world will become aggressive and kill anyone remaining there.
This was what Kuma said in the first place. Kuma is an expert about these things. Just believe him :)