So what's the deal with the anti-LGBT sentiment?

[Arkitakama]

I've noticed that none of the Persona games allow same-sex relationships. What's up with that? If I want my character to be gay/bi/whateverthehell, I should have that option. It's not like Atlus doesn't touch on LGBT subject matter in these games. And while I'm on THAT topic, the way Atlus handles that is freaking terrible. Like, you had a golden opportunity with Kanji to show him really coming to terms with alternative sexuality, and not only did you make his Shadow the most ridiculous gay stereotype in existence, after the matter was resolved, it never came up again. Is this how Atlus really sees the LGBT community? Because if so, that's honestly really borked. Our sexualities don't just disappear once we come to terms with it, and stereotyping is freaking gross.

[Zastier]

Also, y'all act as if LGBT was this mysterious unknown thing back in 2008 as if we didn't have gay characters in major media in the 90s. With Southpark and the Simpsons featuring homosexual characters in 1997, Ellen DeGeneres coming out that same year. You really going to say Japan was unique with no gayness when shows like Sailor Moon featured lesbian and gay couples that were shamelessly censored in their English release?

You are literally just looking for excuses for your blatant homophobia.

[DLON]

Zastier の投稿を引用：

Also, y'all act as if LGBT was this mysterious unknown thing back in 2008 as if we didn't have gay characters in major media in the 90s. With Southpark and the Simpsons featuring homosexual characters in 1997, Ellen DeGeneres coming out that same year. You really going to say Japan was unique with no gayness when shows like Sailor Moon featured lesbian and gay couples that were shamelessly censored in their English release?

You are literally just looking for excuses for your blatant homophobia.

"HOMOPHOBIA, HOMOPHOBIA, HOMOPHOBIA!!! REEEEEEEEEEEE" blah blah blah.
What does that word even mean anymore? It used to mean hatred of gay people. But the way you cretins use it, is pretty much like:

"Any disagreement with any gay person, over anything = HOMOPHOBIA".

You don't want to see a developer forced to put gay romances in their game? You're HOMOPHOBIC. REEEE.

You don't think that every game should have gay, transsexual etc. characters and "representation" in it? HOMOPHOBIC! TRANSPHOBIC! REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

F off.


l will repost my comment to you again. Here it is:

None of us think that gay people's existence is political.

Trying to force the developers to include them in the game, however, or attacking and attempting to shame the developers, for perceived "homophobia", IS political, and should be unacceptable and always condemned.

Gay people existing =/= they must be included in everything they demand to be included in.
-------------------------------
This is not the case of Atlus putting gay romances or whatever in the game, and us attacking them for doing so. This is a case of morons accusing Atlus of being """homophobic""" for including this or that, or NOT including something.

There's a difference. If you can't understand that, then you're thick in the head.

[Dopey Shepard]

Zastier の投稿を引用：

Also, y'all act as if LGBT was this mysterious unknown thing back in 2008 as if we didn't have gay characters in major media in the 90s. With Southpark and the Simpsons featuring homosexual characters in 1997, Ellen DeGeneres coming out that same year. You really going to say Japan was unique with no gayness when shows like Sailor Moon featured lesbian and gay couples that were shamelessly censored in their English release?

You are literally just looking for excuses for your blatant homophobia.

You should know that your "major media" especially in US was quite homophobic back in the 90s, and especially the Ellen's coming out. Didn't she lose her job? There were other instances of people getting fired for coming out to be gay so your argument falls flat kinda. US, one of the wokest countries right now was quite homophobic not even 30 years ago. And that is US, now imagine homophobic Russia that right now in 20/21 censors pretty much everything gay-related and has laws in place against adult people talking about gay relationships with kids under the age of 14. Japan may not be on the level of russia but even right now doesn't have that wokeness US possesses

My point being - there's a lot less gay people coming out as gay especially when their surroundings are so homophobic. Try doing this "coming out" here in rural parts of Russia, you would be ostracized like crazy, you will be bullied in school, your friends and co-workers will turn away from you, and people will literally try to do their best to revert their sexuality back to the societal norms (in their environment) aka, being straight. The percentage of gay people in russia is tenfolds lower than in the US

But you are right, gay people have always existed and back in the days of slavery, gladiators and Rome, a lot of men turned to being gay and weren't really ostracized for it

p.s. btw "phobia" literally means fear, but people started using the term wrong and now we have fear, the correct term, replaced with hate and set the wrong term to be the right for that word, which in its essence actually means fear of gay/trans/minorities/whatever people. You have all kinds of phobias like arachnophobia, acrophobia which actually do mean their REAL definition of phobia = fear. Strange how society accepts both these instances and thinks it's ok to misuse the terms "phobia" over and over again.

[The_Red_Inkling]

In Persona 3, 4, and 5, unfortunately it is not possible to have the protagonist be gay or bi, but in the first two games (technically first 3 but dsjgakhgoishdtklswe), you can totally do that.

[moldycheesehat]

ya for real i'll just be enjoying a fun moment in the game and all of a sudden yosuke says "ew are you really into that sort of thing" and it just kills the mood so much lmao. also for everyone saying to not bring politics into games, allowing people to exist without making them feel ashamed for who they are isn't political.

that being said,,, i thought kanji's shadow was supposed to be overly stereotypical, because that was how he thought people perceived him, and that's what he was scared of becoming. Which is understandable, he's a teenager who is confused about his sexuality and has never met someone who feels the same way he does, so he based his thoughts off of all the stereotypes that he knows about gay people.

[Gabito264]

moldycheesehat の投稿を引用：

ya for real i'll just be enjoying a fun moment in the game and all of a sudden yosuke says "ew are you really into that sort of thing" and it just kills the mood so much lmao. also for everyone saying to not bring politics into games, allowing people to exist without making them feel ashamed for who they are isn't political.

that being said,,, i thought kanji's shadow was supposed to be overly stereotypical, because that was how he thought people perceived him, and that's what he was scared of becoming. Which is understandable, he's a teenager who is confused about his sexuality and has never met someone who feels the same way he does, so he based his thoughts off of all the stereotypes that he knows about gay people.

The reason people hate these posts is because they just dilute into mere name-calling that isnt fruitful, aside from that there really isnt anything to be said about the topic that hasnt been said before. the dev wanted it that way, but Ill be cool if there was an option. Nobody ever said that they're opposed to the idea if you actually care to read the thread.
Also yosuke is a teenager, teenagers are ♥♥♥♥♥ to each other on banter, you being not okay with it is totally okay.
Regarding the shadow, yes, its stereotypical because shadows are supposed to be exaggerations of the true feelings that someone represses, with kanji's being about his manlyness, it is seen with the others that its obviously exaggerations and stereotypes.

[Dopey Shepard]

moldycheesehat の投稿を引用：

ya for real i'll just be enjoying a fun moment in the game and all of a sudden yosuke says "ew are you really into that sort of thing" and it just kills the mood so much lmao. also for everyone saying to not bring politics into games, allowing people to exist without making them feel ashamed for who they are isn't political.

that being said,,, i thought kanji's shadow was supposed to be overly stereotypical, because that was how he thought people perceived him, and that's what he was scared of becoming. Which is understandable, he's a teenager who is confused about his sexuality and has never met someone who feels the same way he does, so he based his thoughts off of all the stereotypes that he knows about gay people.

there's not a single gay character in Persona 4, so no, it doesn't have to be political at all. Why don't you go play a game that is full of gays and spout your "political" stuff over there?

[ElHomieDerp]

Y'all ruin everything you touch. Give y'all an inch, then you want a mile. ♥♥♥♥ Y'all

[Equation™]

what has this world become, i can't wait to die

[Ch3rn0]

Stop self inserting yourself in video games. It's not healthy.

[Zastier]

Dopey Shepard の投稿を引用：

Zastier の投稿を引用：

Also, y'all act as if LGBT was this mysterious unknown thing back in 2008 as if we didn't have gay characters in major media in the 90s. With Southpark and the Simpsons featuring homosexual characters in 1997, Ellen DeGeneres coming out that same year. You really going to say Japan was unique with no gayness when shows like Sailor Moon featured lesbian and gay couples that were shamelessly censored in their English release?

You are literally just looking for excuses for your blatant homophobia.

You should know that your "major media" especially in US was quite homophobic back in the 90s, and especially the Ellen's coming out. Didn't she lose her job? There were other instances of people getting fired for coming out to be gay so your argument falls flat kinda. US, one of the wokest countries right now was quite homophobic not even 30 years ago. And that is US, now imagine homophobic Russia that right now in 20/21 censors pretty much everything gay-related and has laws in place against adult people talking about gay relationships with kids under the age of 14. Japan may not be on the level of russia but even right now doesn't have that wokeness US possesses

My point being - there's a lot less gay people coming out as gay especially when their surroundings are so homophobic. Try doing this "coming out" here in rural parts of Russia, you would be ostracized like crazy, you will be bullied in school, your friends and co-workers will turn away from you, and people will literally try to do their best to revert their sexuality back to the societal norms (in their environment) aka, being straight. The percentage of gay people in russia is tenfolds lower than in the US

But you are right, gay people have always existed and back in the days of slavery, gladiators and Rome, a lot of men turned to being gay and weren't really ostracized for it

p.s. btw "phobia" literally means fear, but people started using the term wrong and now we have fear, the correct term, replaced with hate and set the wrong term to be the right for that word, which in its essence actually means fear of gay/trans/minorities/whatever people. You have all kinds of phobias like arachnophobia, acrophobia which actually do mean their REAL definition of phobia = fear. Strange how society accepts both these instances and thinks it's ok to misuse the terms "phobia" over and over again.

Awesome, so you understand gay people existed for a while homophobia is an issue. So now tell me how exactly is wanting more representation bad? How is fighting homophobia bad? How is anything you just said going against the idea of including a gay route in a game? It's not a novel idea. It's been done, in movies, in games, in anime, in cartoons, in manga. It was done in this very series before. It was done in other Japanese games before. Yes, people look down upon it, and yes people get ostracized for it, but how the ♥♥♥♥ do you expect anything there to change if you just accept it being swept under the rug?

Also, phobia in homophobia refers to the fear of homosexuality. Just like Islamophobia, it originates from the irrational fear people feel towards the group, which often develops into hate. Just like an arachnophobe would hate spiders. Nobody is misusing anything. Like any part of language, it just evolved over time.

[Equation™]

Zastier の投稿を引用：

Dopey Shepard の投稿を引用：

You should know that your "major media" especially in US was quite homophobic back in the 90s, and especially the Ellen's coming out. Didn't she lose her job? There were other instances of people getting fired for coming out to be gay so your argument falls flat kinda. US, one of the wokest countries right now was quite homophobic not even 30 years ago. And that is US, now imagine homophobic Russia that right now in 20/21 censors pretty much everything gay-related and has laws in place against adult people talking about gay relationships with kids under the age of 14. Japan may not be on the level of russia but even right now doesn't have that wokeness US possesses

My point being - there's a lot less gay people coming out as gay especially when their surroundings are so homophobic. Try doing this "coming out" here in rural parts of Russia, you would be ostracized like crazy, you will be bullied in school, your friends and co-workers will turn away from you, and people will literally try to do their best to revert their sexuality back to the societal norms (in their environment) aka, being straight. The percentage of gay people in russia is tenfolds lower than in the US

But you are right, gay people have always existed and back in the days of slavery, gladiators and Rome, a lot of men turned to being gay and weren't really ostracized for it

p.s. btw "phobia" literally means fear, but people started using the term wrong and now we have fear, the correct term, replaced with hate and set the wrong term to be the right for that word, which in its essence actually means fear of gay/trans/minorities/whatever people. You have all kinds of phobias like arachnophobia, acrophobia which actually do mean their REAL definition of phobia = fear. Strange how society accepts both these instances and thinks it's ok to misuse the terms "phobia" over and over again.

Awesome, so you understand gay people existed for a while homophobia is an issue. So now tell me how exactly is wanting more representation bad? How is fighting homophobia bad? How is anything you just said going against the idea of including a gay route in a game? It's not a novel idea. It's been done, in movies, in games, in anime, in cartoons, in manga. It was done in this very series before. It was done in other Japanese games before. Yes, people look down upon it, and yes people get ostracized for it, but how the ♥♥♥♥ do you expect anything there to change if you just accept it being swept under the rug?

Also, phobia in homophobia refers to the fear of homosexuality. Just like Islamophobia, it originates from the irrational fear people feel towards the group, which often develops into hate. Just like an arachnophobe would hate spiders. Nobody is misusing anything. Like any part of language, it just evolved over time.

Are we in a computer video game forum here? maybe I took the wrong turn?

[Zastier]

Equation™ の投稿を引用：

Are we in a computer video game forum here? maybe I took the wrong turn?

You know, if you do not want to be a part of a discussion you can just ignore it right?

[Dopey Shepard]

Zastier の投稿を引用：

Dopey Shepard の投稿を引用：

You should know that your "major media" especially in US was quite homophobic back in the 90s, and especially the Ellen's coming out. Didn't she lose her job? There were other instances of people getting fired for coming out to be gay so your argument falls flat kinda. US, one of the wokest countries right now was quite homophobic not even 30 years ago. And that is US, now imagine homophobic Russia that right now in 20/21 censors pretty much everything gay-related and has laws in place against adult people talking about gay relationships with kids under the age of 14. Japan may not be on the level of russia but even right now doesn't have that wokeness US possesses

My point being - there's a lot less gay people coming out as gay especially when their surroundings are so homophobic. Try doing this "coming out" here in rural parts of Russia, you would be ostracized like crazy, you will be bullied in school, your friends and co-workers will turn away from you, and people will literally try to do their best to revert their sexuality back to the societal norms (in their environment) aka, being straight. The percentage of gay people in russia is tenfolds lower than in the US

But you are right, gay people have always existed and back in the days of slavery, gladiators and Rome, a lot of men turned to being gay and weren't really ostracized for it

p.s. btw "phobia" literally means fear, but people started using the term wrong and now we have fear, the correct term, replaced with hate and set the wrong term to be the right for that word, which in its essence actually means fear of gay/trans/minorities/whatever people. You have all kinds of phobias like arachnophobia, acrophobia which actually do mean their REAL definition of phobia = fear. Strange how society accepts both these instances and thinks it's ok to misuse the terms "phobia" over and over again.

Awesome, so you understand gay people existed for a while homophobia is an issue. So now tell me how exactly is wanting more representation bad? How is fighting homophobia bad? How is anything you just said going against the idea of including a gay route in a game? It's not a novel idea. It's been done, in movies, in games, in anime, in cartoons, in manga. It was done in this very series before. It was done in other Japanese games before. Yes, people look down upon it, and yes people get ostracized for it, but how the ♥♥♥♥ do you expect anything there to change if you just accept it being swept under the rug?

Also, phobia in homophobia refers to the fear of homosexuality. Just like Islamophobia, it originates from the irrational fear people feel towards the group, which often develops into hate. Just like an arachnophobe would hate spiders. Nobody is misusing anything. Like any part of language, it just evolved over time.

I think your problem is that you actually WANT to force other people to accept something that you do. You do realize that people in other countries/regions/religions totally different from you, don't you?. I mean, The Last of Us 2 was literally banned in UAE (arab) because it portrayed gay relationship. You think THOSe people are gonna be accepting of more "representation"? They won't, they will just ban the content in their countries and move on, which is what you should do. Stop trying to tell others how to think, ok? I come from Russia, a country where you would be beaten up for being gay and people in here dont even know what trans or being a queer or a furry or a drag queen actually means. All these terms are alien to us because we don't do this stuff, and media never reports on any of that stuff to raise awareness. The only reason I even know of that stuff is because I watch english content, especially US youtube content creators quite a lot, so I'm informed. If I were to approach a 1000 russians and asked them if they were accepting of trans individuals pretty sure more than 90% wouldn't even know wth I'm talking about

So again, why exactly is it bad for other nations/religions to think different? Must they all be accepting of somebody who thinks they are a deer so they are a deer and not a person (it's a twitch staff reference, you can look it up)

Also, I think you are quite confused thinking that representation = fighting homophobia. it doesn't. If you were to put a whole bunch of useless duplicant NPCs in a video game and make them gay, that doesn't exactly fight any homophobia. It only shows that the only characters who don't even have anything to origin/background but their sexual orientation were written badly, poorly, by a lazy woke person who thought including useless NPCs and making them gay would mean something good.

It doesn't.

You either write a solid strong character that is there from the start of the game who actually has unique lines of dialogue etc. to make them viable or you don't. Inserting a bunch of doll gay NPCs doesn't fight anything, it only makes the developer look ignorant, if anything

If Atlus never wants to include gay characters into their game, I'm totally fine with that, just how I would be fine if Atlus decided to only include gay characters. Like I said, if they are written good, and have story, and they aren't there JUST TO BE GAY, then it's perfectly fine

Gay characters shouldn't be forced onto people, which HAS happened in video gaming before, and people called out the devs for it. Also, atlus is not all japanese companies so why exactly should they be doing what others do? Persona games are quite unique, I dont want them to be smth that gets released every year like sports games with just re-skin graphics and different characters' stats.

[Madeline]

Dopey Shepard の投稿を引用：

Zastier の投稿を引用：

Awesome, so you understand gay people existed for a while homophobia is an issue. So now tell me how exactly is wanting more representation bad? How is fighting homophobia bad? How is anything you just said going against the idea of including a gay route in a game? It's not a novel idea. It's been done, in movies, in games, in anime, in cartoons, in manga. It was done in this very series before. It was done in other Japanese games before. Yes, people look down upon it, and yes people get ostracized for it, but how the ♥♥♥♥ do you expect anything there to change if you just accept it being swept under the rug?

Also, phobia in homophobia refers to the fear of homosexuality. Just like Islamophobia, it originates from the irrational fear people feel towards the group, which often develops into hate. Just like an arachnophobe would hate spiders. Nobody is misusing anything. Like any part of language, it just evolved over time.

I think your problem is that you actually WANT to force other people to accept something that you do. You do realize that people in other countries/regions/religions totally different from you, don't you?. I mean, The Last of Us 2 was literally banned in UAE (arab) because it portrayed gay relationship. You think THOSe people are gonna be accepting of more "representation"? They won't, they will just ban the content in their countries and move on, which is what you should do. Stop trying to tell others how to think, ok? I come from Russia, a country where you would be beaten up for being gay and people in here dont even know what trans or being a queer or a furry or a drag queen actually means. All these terms are alien to us because we don't do this stuff, and media never reports on any of that stuff to raise awareness. The only reason I even know of that stuff is because I watch english content, especially US youtube content creators quite a lot, so I'm informed. If I were to approach a 1000 russians and asked them if they were accepting of trans individuals pretty sure more than 90% wouldn't even know wth I'm talking about

So again, why exactly is it bad for other nations/religions to think different? Must they all be accepting of somebody who thinks they are a deer so they are a deer and not a person (it's a twitch staff reference, you can look it up)

Also, I think you are quite confused thinking that representation = fighting homophobia. it doesn't. If you were to put a whole bunch of useless duplicant NPCs in a video game and make them gay, that doesn't exactly fight any homophobia. It only shows that the only characters who don't even have anything to origin/background but their sexual orientation were written badly, poorly, by a lazy woke person who thought including useless NPCs and making them gay would mean something good.

It doesn't.

You either write a solid strong character that is there from the start of the game who actually has unique lines of dialogue etc. to make them viable or you don't. Inserting a bunch of doll gay NPCs doesn't fight anything, it only makes the developer look ignorant, if anything

If Atlus never wants to include gay characters into their game, I'm totally fine with that, just how I would be fine if Atlus decided to only include gay characters. Like I said, if they are written good, and have story, and they aren't there JUST TO BE GAY, then it's perfectly fine

Gay characters shouldn't be forced onto people, which HAS happened in video gaming before, and people called out the devs for it. Also, atlus is not all japanese companies so why exactly should they be doing what others do? Persona games are quite unique, I dont want them to be smth that gets released every year like sports games with just re-skin graphics and different characters' stats.

I fully agree to this and have some things to add. I think many of the lgbtq community forget that something called artistic freedom exists. In simple terms if I write a poem about how I love my gf, I won't write about being gay. The main Problem with this crying out for representation is that if you force an artist to create something they originally didn't intent to do they won't feel the same passion for it as for their own creation. In simple terms again. I'm not a furry, so if I'm commissioned to draw furry hentai I won't be as passionate about creating it as drawing fanart of my favourite games. It's that simple. But the main issue is not that you say representation=fighting homophobia whic it's not. But the problem is that not representing=/=being homophobic. You see what I mean. Just like because I don't include gay people into my poem about my girlfriend doesn't mean I'm homophobic, hell my best friend is gay. And he is very simple about that. Cuz he simply says "I have nore to myself then being gay. No one actually cares that I am. And I prefer it that way." And back to my point about representation not doing ♥♥♥♥. Well the only people who are happy about it are the people who already accept homosexuality. And those who doesn't will simply feel agreement that their world view is correct. Because you wouldn't need to convince people about it being normal if it is isn't it. At least that's what people like that think. So basically through this forced representation you create even more conflict and radicalize both sides instead of creating a unity. So in the end if Atlus doesn't want to make Kanji gay, and instead write a character who is simply not confident in himself that's totally fine and in their right. In the end Kanji is still a well written character and someone I would totally hang out with irl. If they would have made him gay from the beginning it would be absolutly fine too. But please don't pull a Hermione where we suddenly change her from white to black because representation.