What is the real complaint about Dwarf DLC?

[baluranha]

So, bought the DLC since I really enjoyed this game however I found out that some users hate it because of racial trait and how it dilutes the hero pool...

But after looking at the dwarf trait and skill set, how can they hate it? Sure, he gets reduced movement speed but he also gets a "dwarf toss" skill that more than compensate the movement speed reduction, not to mention multiple traits that increase stats by killing enemies, using consumables and just hitting many enemies...so basically, no real downside?

So with that, what is the REAL complaint? Because I cannot believe that it is the movement speed reduction...

[Bumc]

-2 movement is a big deal, especially early game where it could be reduced from 6 to 4.
And while dwarves have dwarf toss, they cannot jump, which makes some forms of defensive lines obsolete (like checkers formation barricades).

Because of their limited mobility dwarves often get stuck inside enemies and while blocking weak mobs is generally a good thing, many players prefer to not get hit.

I would probably remove health cost from dwarf toss -- its almost irrelevant for balance and its one of the most feels bad mechanics for dorfs.

[justus_cap]

I'd give you my positives (which are many) but you asked for complaints :)

Mobility is huge in the maps following Lakeburg so that hindrance is pretty rough. Sometimes with the other negative traits I have a dwarf with 3-4 movement. It's very hard to recover from such a low number.

The inability to jump over obstacles without a trait can put you in some bad spots.

Inundated by the dwarf! On SEVERAL occasions at the Inn... all 5 characters were dwarf. I hit re-roll... the next 5 choices are dwarf. I did not buy this expansion to totally lose my hero options! it's annoying tbh. (Edit note... the developer said this is not supposed to happen and I should send a copy of the save file next time it does so you can ignore this last one unless it also happens to you).

[letir]

Dwarf characters losing speed, which is incredibly bad trade in this game. Speed is usually much better for survivability than some numbers. They also cannot jump, which can also play in the lack of mobility for those who prefer to use leapfrog. Their racial perks and toss can be fun features, but not very effective.

Most of people complaints aimed exactly at characters which going against TLS meta, and cannot be disabled as weapons.

[Bumc]

At certain point in difficulty speed actually becomes worse than tank stats -- enemies become faster and more numerous but they don't hit much harder.

On regular difficulty I'd say yeah humans are just better than dorfs (and elves will probably be better than humans).

[justus_cap]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Bumc:

At certain point in difficulty speed actually becomes worse than tank stats -- enemies become faster and more numerous but they don't hit much harder.

On regular difficulty I'd say yeah humans are just better than dorfs (and elves will probably be better than humans).

To me speed is actually still important at higher difficulties. (Aside from perhaps Lakeburg), You need to cross large distances to handle things like the sisters weapons, the spirit bowl things, the spirit dwarves, or the dryads. I've found with 17 movement, a movement potion, and a teleport (scroll/crystal/skill) sometimes I still can barely get to where I need to go in a single turn (the goal is to handle as much of that obstacle as I can in one turn). Teleporters are useful, however due to the randomness of where these things appear they can often end up in not-so-great spots since you're guessing.

(This is also not to mention that it is really nice to be able to cross huge distances if some very mobile enemy was able to sneak inside your base and annoy you, yet you can reach it fast and get back to what needs to be done).

Without the mobility to cross huge distances to hunt those boss pop up things down quickly, the waves you have to endure become overwhelming very fast.

So yeah I agree that talking speed, humans are indeed just better than dwarves! And don't get me wrong, I also agree that "tankiness" is also important on higher difficulty.

[Kaysoky]

I prefer Skill Range over movement (although both are nice), since this can translate AP into movement over much longer range. This can be straightforward like using the Cannon to travel. Or attacking (possibly empty tiles) with the 1-H Sword to zip along a straight line.

I find this more flexible since you generally need to travel long distances when there are sparse enemies (or many enemies to ignore on boss nights). And with sparse enemies, you don't need to spend that AP on attacking, so putting it to use on movement gets you to your destination faster.

As for teleporters, I generally put them along the 4 directions, somewhat close to the outside of my walls. This is because it takes the most movement to get through the haven (due to packing in buildings) and the teleporters need to be free of monsters to be used.

[Bumc]

Oprindeligt skrevet af justus_cap:

To me speed is actually still important at higher difficulties...

Right, but your examples come mostly from late game where racial stats don't matter.
Yeah sure that dude will move 2 tiles less from his 30 and this one won't who cares.
And Kay is right that skill range is more effective than movement (harder to find though) as it scales both attack and mobility skills range.

Being unable to catch runners generally means you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up a turn earlier (unless its Glenwald where split spawn can be absolute misery to catch with a single hero).

Humans might actually be better boss killers (perks and mobility skill better suited for solo dives), but you only really need one.

[baluranha]

I see that most of the comments talk about mobility and that movement is better to reach another point across the map...

But...the dwarves have emergency tunnel perk? The thing that allows you to go back to Haven, not to mention that the complaints on movement seems like dwarves can't get movemenst speed choices in the level up...c'mon guys, it's 2 less movement speed at the beginning of the game, if you have a human with 14 movement, you can definetely have a dwarf with 12, not to mention that, again, the dwarf toss allows you to go even further, unless you're doing lone wolf heroes, you always have another character nearby that can boost you those tiles...

I will try to do "dwarf only" runs and see how it works out but as of now (30+ hours, 10+ hours with DLC) I didn't see any difference other than dwarves being superior in the early game and the same in the late.

[letir]

It definitly possible to play around mobility problems on most maps. You can just do corpse strat - no need to go anywhere. But in meta sense it still downside, because movement speed is one of the more important stats.

So there is characters which kinda below average and cannot be disabled, bunch of quirky special weapons which struggle to compete with meta picks, and one map.

[AbigailMcD19]

Oprindeligt skrevet af letir:

It definitly possible to play around mobility problems on most maps. You can just do corpse strat - no need to go anywhere. But in meta sense it still downside, because movement speed is one of the more important stats.

So there is characters which kinda below average and cannot be disabled, bunch of quirky special weapons which struggle to compete with meta picks, and one map.

Cannon is considered by some people to be the second best, or even the best, weapon, gauntlet is increadibly strong on the right builds, and Warshield had many players reconsidering the value ot building tanky heroes
Dwarves are generally above average, tankiness goes a long way early, and their maximum amount of movement is the same so in the late game that stops being a concern
The map is fun and a new challenge, new maps have always been a large effort from the devs, a new map was the defining aspect of the 1.0 launch, so it is hard to expect more than 1 map

[justus_cap]

Oprindeligt skrevet af baluranha:

I see that most of the comments talk about mobility and that movement is better to reach another point across the map...

But...the dwarves have emergency tunnel perk? The thing that allows you to go back to Haven, not to mention that the complaints on movement seems like dwarves can't get movemenst speed choices in the level up...c'mon guys, it's 2 less movement speed at the beginning of the game, if you have a human with 14 movement, you can definetely have a dwarf with 12, not to mention that, again, the dwarf toss allows you to go even further, unless you're doing lone wolf heroes, you always have another character nearby that can boost you those tiles...

I will try to do "dwarf only" runs and see how it works out but as of now (30+ hours, 10+ hours with DLC) I didn't see any difference other than dwarves being superior in the early game and the same in the late.

Yes true 2 less... however emergency tunnel is only back to the base, so one directional (limited use too). Hardly helpful for chasing down that Dryad in the far corner. Dwarf toss requires another hero to be close... so it ties down 2 heroes to make use of that ability. Obstacles cost extra movement to get around or can completely block you off since a dwarf can't jump. Guess I am just saying it's not as straightforward as just 2 less points. Again, there are alternatives to movement.

[justus_cap]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Kaysoky:

I prefer Skill Range over movement (although both are nice), since this can translate AP into movement over much longer range. This can be straightforward like using the Cannon to travel. Or attacking (possibly empty tiles) with the 1-H Sword to zip along a straight line.

I find this more flexible since you generally need to travel long distances when there are sparse enemies (or many enemies to ignore on boss nights). And with sparse enemies, you don't need to spend that AP on attacking, so putting it to use on movement gets you to your destination faster.

As for teleporters, I generally put them along the 4 directions, somewhat close to the outside of my walls. This is because it takes the most movement to get through the haven (due to packing in buildings) and the teleporters need to be free of monsters to be used.

I mean totally agree with skill range... but the ability to increase your skill range seems less available than the other ways to increase movement. I would prefer movement to range on a map where there's tons of vision blocking obstacles, like the sisters map or dryads. Because this requires yet another skill to compensate for not being able to see if that is even available as well. Having to re-maneuver constantly sucks up movement. Working hard to build up that range and constantly being stymied would be annoying. But on a map with few obstacles, range is wonderful because you can remain out of enemy range while destroying them. It's all situational.