A solution to weapon unlocks objectively nerfing the player

[Gryphon]

EDIT: Since many people are missing an important point in this OP, I'll try to rephrase it one more time:

Unlocking more weapons would still be a nerf *even if all weapons were perfectly balanced*. This is because most weapons prefer very specific perk builds and level up stats. Thus, a larger item pool for drops and the shop is automatically a nerf.

EDIT 2: And the only reason this is a problem is because weapons unlocks are purchased by spending your hard-earned currency for meta upgrades. I would have ZERO issue with this if weapon unlocks were free and unavoidable.




In a roguelite, unlocks being a stealth-nerf is a Serious Problem. It undermines the main motivation keeping the player going, and it also feels like a trap.

However, I have come to the conclusion that unlocking new weapons will ALWAYS be a nerf due the game's core mechanics.

Specifically, it is made inevitable by:
a) ability-sets tied to weapons
b) stat system with many specialized stats (amazing for some abilities, useless for others, e.g. multishot hits)
c) gear upgrade opportunities limited and randomized

imo, the only way to avoid a drastic rework of these core mechanics (which would be a huge can of worms to open), is to remove/replace weapon unlock "up"grades and make unlocking them unavoidable. I get that weapon access should be gated to avoid overwhelming new players, but there are different ways to do this (e.g. total number of runs, reach night X the first time). It can even be done "in the background", i.e. weapons just start appearing after a while without any feedback as to why.

For people who have gotten used to avoid unlocking weapons they don't want, this may seem harsh. But this is the result of a bad system that creates wonky incentives.

But the game IS balanced around all weapons being unlocked. It IS playable and fun that way. It's unfortunate for early access players, but new player, can't miss an ability to avoid weapons they never had!

[LotusBlade]

This is rogueLIKE. Yes, there are few major unlocks like extra starting gold and hero energy, but not too many to call it true rogueLITE like "Rogue Legacy 2", plus, you can counter main unlocks by reducing difficulty and still beat the game.

Roguelikes, like "binding of isaac" (which also has few main unlocks, bigger shops for example), have many unlocks which add varietty to builds and synergies. I don't know why would you even avoid extra items at all. To improve chances to get good ones? That is counterproductive in long term, you will just use same build every time and game will be simply not interesting after few runs.

Curently game has not enough rough content (maps, bosses, monsters) to tie unlocks to specific accomplishments (your suggestion). I beated it on first run after tutorial. If it gonna work your way, then player will get all weapons / gear from first win, which can happen early and there will be simply no more reason to continue playing. Instead of proper rogue****, Last Spell will turn into casual puzzler for a single evening.

I would rather like to have different weapons in different towns. For example, two-handed only in second town, as well as heavy armor and spiky sets. Third town could have elemental magic (ice? wind? stone - create indestructable obstacle?), summoner sets, morph scrolls to turn into animals etc.

[Fernando]

Originally posted by LotusBlade:

This is rogueLIKE. Yes, there are few major unlocks like extra starting gold and hero energy, but not too many to call it true rogueLITE like "Rogue Legacy 2", plus, you can counter main unlocks by reducing difficulty and still beat the game.

Roguelikes, like "binding of isaac" (which also has few main unlocks, bigger shops for example), have many unlocks which add varietty to builds and synergies. I don't know why would you even avoid extra items at all. To improve chances to get good ones? That is counterproductive in long term, you will just use same build every time and game will be simply not interesting after few runs.

Curently game has not enough rough content (maps, bosses, monsters) to tie unlocks to specific accomplishments (your suggestion). I beated it on first run after tutorial. If it gonna work your way, then player will get all weapons / gear from first win, which can happen early and there will be simply no more reason to continue playing. Instead of proper rogue****, Last Spell will turn into casual puzzler for a single evening.

I would rather like to have different weapons in different towns. For example, two-handed only in second town, as well as heavy armor and spiky sets. Third town could have elemental magic (ice? wind? stone - create indestructable obstacle?), summoner sets, morph scrolls to turn into animals etc.

This is so wrong, it hurts.

The last spell replayability does not come from unlocking items, that's the last spell annoyance, you bet I will cheat back all the unlocks I have after they reset everything.

The replayability comes from apocalypse levels, and the op point is spot on, playing on apoc 6 right now, and I wish I had not unlocked some of the crappy items.

[TripSin]

I think it's fine as is. Sounds like they should add an easy mode option for you guys so you can only choose the strong weapons you like. This game isn't supposed to be easy. It's designed so that you work with what you get.

[Fernando]

Originally posted by TripSin:

I think it's fine as is. Sounds like they should add an easy mode option for you guys so you can only choose the strong weapons you like. This game isn't supposed to be easy. It's designed so that you work with what you get.

the game already has an easy mode, and I think you're playing it already.

The point is not to make the game easier, its the fact that you can make the game easier by not getting a few weapons/armor unlock options...

[LotusBlade]

Originally posted by Fernando:

The point is not to make the game easier, its the fact that you can make the game easier by not getting a few weapons/armor unlock options...

But that requires to actually unlock those unlocks first, try them several times, then figure they are useless, then start a new save and not unlock them... But for what reason? If you already got everything from upgrades tree - you won.

Or you going to try infinite climb apocalypse levels? And therefore optimise item chances to get only best of best and brag on forum to people who don't care? Fine, it is called cheateing, and you can do it all you want. Even in one of the guides i see guy who cheats to win apoc 6-11 by alt+f4 from game after checking enemy waves with seer / checking crafting tables / stat upgrades and then undoing it to do things differently. And then builds fences in front of fog, so enemies can't attack (which is straigt abusing game). If that's what you want - ok, do it.

Player can make ANY game easy by using different bugs, glitches, cheats and hacks. No matter how much developers will try to fix holes. And what OP suggest is a HUGE rework of whole upgrades tree just to fix 1 tiny hole for a small portion of hardcore players. I would rather want to see content updates instead of this.

[Fernando]

Originally posted by LotusBlade:

Originally posted by Fernando:

The point is not to make the game easier, its the fact that you can make the game easier by not getting a few weapons/armor unlock options...

But that requires to actually unlock those unlocks first, try them several times, then figure they are useless, then start a new save and not unlock them... But for what reason? If you already got everything from upgrades tree - you won.

Or you going to try infinite climb apocalypse levels? And therefore optimise item chances to get only best of best and brag on forum to people who don't care? Fine, it is called cheateing, and you can do it all you want. Even in one of the guides i see guy who cheats to win apoc 6-11 by alt+f4 from game after checking enemy waves with seer / checking crafting tables / stat upgrades and then undoing it to do things differently. And then builds fences in front of fog, so enemies can't attack (which is straigt abusing game). If that's what you want - ok, do it.

Player can make ANY game easy by using different bugs, glitches, cheats and hacks. No matter how much developers will try to fix holes. And what OP suggest is a HUGE rework of whole upgrades tree just to fix 1 tiny hole for a small portion of hardcore players. I would rather want to see content updates instead of this.

And what is the point of content update if the content is worse than what we already got?
Why some unlocked equipment needs to be weaker than others? Or even weaker than the starting equipment?

[Gryphon]

Originally posted by LotusBlade:

Originally posted by Fernando:

The point is not to make the game easier, its the fact that you can make the game easier by not getting a few weapons/armor unlock options...

But that requires to actually unlock those unlocks first, try them several times, then figure they are useless, then start a new save and not unlock them... But for what reason? If you already got everything from upgrades tree - you won.

You are looking at this from the perspective of the player, not the game designer. Specifically, a player who has already played the game, not a set of "fresh eyes".

You are right that most players are probably not going to reset because of this. But many will realize halfway through the game "wait a second, these "up"grades are actually DOWNgrades, [ackbar]IT'S A TRAP[/ackbar]". And this can reduce how much fun they are having from that point on for the rest of the game, because unlocking upgrades suddenly isn't an effective reward anymore.

On the other hand, if you change the game to automatically unlock weapons, a new player will never encounter that situation, will never come to that realization, and have more fun all the way through.

[becephalus]

Just my $0.02 As someone considering buying this game, when I hear about ♥♥♥♥ like this is it a big turn off and makes me thing the developers don't understand their own game.

[TurinTuramba]

Originally posted by becephalus:

Just my $0.02 As someone considering buying this game, when I hear about ♥♥♥♥ like this is it a big turn off and makes me thing the developers don't understand their own game.

Don't give to much weight to a single player's opinion. Weapon balance is already pretty good even at the highest difficulty levels. The only weapons that I feel definitely need some help are scepter and rifle. All others have their uses. Even rifle can be helpful as backup on your 5th/6th hero.

[Gryphon]

Originally posted by becephalus:

Just my $0.02 As someone considering buying this game, when I hear about ♥♥♥♥ like this is it a big turn off and makes me thing the developers don't understand their own game.

For the record, I actually, like the game. Like, a lot. Otherwise I wouldn't bother with this feedback.

This is pretty much my only major complaint about the game, and it's still early access, so I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

Originally posted by TurinTuramba:

Originally posted by becephalus:

Just my $0.02 As someone considering buying this game, when I hear about ♥♥♥♥ like this is it a big turn off and makes me thing the developers don't understand their own game.

Don't give to much weight to a single player's opinion. Weapon balance is already pretty good even at the highest difficulty levels. The only weapons that I feel definitely need some help are scepter and rifle. All others have their uses. Even rifle can be helpful as backup on your 5th/6th hero.

I think you misunderstood. My complaint isn't the weapon balance itself, which is fine and will probably be tweaked a lot before release.

My complaint is purely that weapons shouldn't be unlocked through meta-upgrades. That's it.

[Deadweight]

I really enjoy weapons as meta unlocks.
Harder and harder apoc levels, whilst fun and the meat of the game won't keep me playing.
Unlocking new weapon types and meta progression is what keeps me playing.

[Gryphon]

This thread is not about ivory tower discussions of what "roguelite" means. What matters is that it's a game where you loose repeatedly, but in doing so earn rewards that help you win (eventually).

Anyway. Being able to choose starting weapons won't do much to address the problem I talk about in the OP, because you will want to ditch those for upgrades pretty quickly. The real issue is finding the weapon you want at the shop and especially crafters (since those only offer 3 choices).

Doesn't mean I'm against it, I just don't think it will change much.

[Evente]

Originally posted by LotusBlade:

This is rogueLIKE. Yes, there are few major unlocks like extra starting gold and hero energy, but not too many to call it true rogueLITE like "Rogue Legacy 2", plus, you can counter main unlocks by reducing difficulty and still beat the game.

A game that is unbeatable on first run due to not having certain unlocks is the most drastic version of a roguelite (versus a roguelike).

Though you claim to have finished the game on first run after the tutorial, which would counter my point. In that case they might've rebalanced the game drastically since I played it, or you're not being totally honest.

[Nokturnal]

This entire thread could be summed up as "The developers did a bad job at actually balancing the upgrades you purchase as some of them are downgrades."

[『Insperatus』]

Don't know how the unlocks are downgrades since all stats are based off rng. I've gotten some awesome gear from unlocks. My only wish is stash filter or extended stash since I am usually out of space by wave 11.