Suggestion: Overhaul or remove the panic system entirely

[BurntFaceMan]

My reasoning on this is that having played this game since very early access, and having followed almost every dev update and read every patch log, it's clear that the panic system has always been at odds with the flow of the game, and it puts players in a position where if they're not playing perfectly, they feel like they're losing - and even worse the player is punished should any kind of panic be induced - which can only be avoided by ensuring nothing ever breaches (or for a long time, even hit) your walls.

It has never felt good to see the panic meter go up, from a gameplay perspective, it makes runs that aren't going well feel worse - and in runs that are coming out on top, it becomes the expectation and standard that panic is never induced.

Themetically the panic system doesn't even make much sense either - as far as we know these settlements are coming together to take on the horde and get that spell popping off - why on earth are people panicking and pulling together less to make this happen as the walls get breached - I get it's a kind of morale system, but again, the only way to protect that morale is to play perfectly (which encourages engaging with metas and having 0 tolerance for panic).

Alternative solutions: Do away with panic - instead introduce a risk reward system wherein the player can accept challenges each night, with each challenge offering it's own reward and either introducing a requirement that has to be met (kill x undead in one turn, kill x enemies within the haven, offhand items aren't allowed, skills cost 1.5x more mana etc etc) - this makes total sense when you consider the panic system is in essence a nightly challenge wherein the player is challenged to perfectly defend the haven, with the reward being gold, mats and an item.

Another solution - keep the panic system as is, rework it so there are ways to lower panic, so losing panic isn't a final and unavoidable penalty.

Another solution - remove the penalty that panic induces wherein the player has their (at points essential to success) resources taken away from them for surviving against the odds on a rough night. A player should be rewarded for pulling through by the skin of their teeth.

Another solution (but not a very good one) - Panic becomes a positive system wherein the heroes gain power based on how dire the situation is getting - this is kind of a bad solution because it encourages a meta wherein panic is intentionally induced - though working alongside the current system, at least it offers a leg up to players who are failing a night, whilst still penalising their rewards at the end.

All of these alternative solutions fix the core issue that the panic system has always been a win more mechanic that discourages nights from feeling more dynamic, as the current system teaches players that anything less than perfection isn't a feasible path to victory - and when runs can take 4-8 hours, no one wants to keep playing a run thats on the rocks.

[Bumc]

They kinda tried to balance it out with corpses, but instead that created another meta minigame that's even stronger win-more, aka killing mobs in certain spots.

Its probably impossible to remove or rework panic system at this point, but yeah it is somewhat problematic.

That being said, due to random nature of both waves and rewards, you can win runs where you "failed" one, or even several nights, so maybe its not that bad.

Challenges would be a cool addition, difficulty spike as a result of your own choices feels less bad than random or forced one.
I threw a lot of runs in Across the Obelisk taking challenges even though the rewards compared to risk of ruining the whole run were quite low.

[BurntFaceMan]

Originally posted by Bumc:

They kinda tried to balance it out with corpses, but instead that created another meta minigame that's even stronger win-more, aka killing mobs in certain spots.

Its probably impossible to remove or rework panic system at this point, but yeah it is somewhat problematic.

That being said, due to random nature of both waves and rewards, you can win runs where you "failed" one, or even several nights, so maybe its not that bad.

Challenges would be a cool addition, difficulty spike as a result of your own choices feels less bad than random or forced one.
I threw a lot of runs in Across the Obelisk taking challenges even though the rewards compared to risk of ruining the whole run were quite low.

I totally agree that one bad night doesn't mean the run is a loss - and yeah I forgot to mention that the corpses within haven buff was a good step in the right direction - but at the end of the day it's a mechanic they introduced to try and counter the silly win more mechanic that panic is to begin with.

IMO a dynamic challenge system is definitely what I'd go with if I was going to rebuild this game from the ground up - I might even keep the panic system alongside it, but I'd change how panic interacts with the rewards, and make it so panic has more of a dynamic effect on the night as it happens.

In general I think the biggest flaw the game has is just that runs are very long, and it really doesn't go hand in hand with a game philosophy of presenting a hard enough challenge that not every run should be a given win - naturally a loss isn't really a loss, as you still walk away with meta progress same as you would with a win - but losing feels particularly bad, and people don't play games to feel bad.

I think this is why there's such an outrage over the ballista nerf (I think it's a good idea personally as I can win almost every run fine without depending on them), but I see so many people complaining that nerfing the ballista = removing fun from the game.

As best I can tell this is because they feel the game only feels fun when a run is going well and panic is never induced.

[Yme]

I don't think removing panic altogether is a good idea. It adds thematic flavour and by this point is very much a core element of the game. What would be nice is to have a way to push panic back during the night. For example, it's pretty easy to lose out on the A rating (and top rewards) by having a couple of random mobs hit the walls (not even destroy them). If we could counteract it by, for example, heroes having a large enough killing streak in one turn, or killing X enemies in one spell - that would act as a morale booster.

[abaoabao2010]

My biggest gripe with panic is that it isn't really felt. Panic rating S doesn't give that much more resources than panic rating D, and the item, while pretty good on the first 3 or so nights, isn't that impactful later on. That, and other than that one screen worth of reward, it doesn't really come up or do anything. I tend to forget the mechanic even exist.

I propose this change:
Thematic: during the night, have some people murmuring in the background on a low volume at mid panic level, and some low volume screaming in the background at high panic level, increasing in volume as panic rises. Darkest dungeon did this with torchlight and boy is it terrifying just from the soundtrack alone.

Mechanic: higher panic should give MORE short term rewards but less long term rewards, to make it more like what people would actually do when panicked. They'll do whatever it takes to survive now, and damn the consequences. You want to reward good play, and bail out someone about to lose. You do not want to reward bad play like the initial intention of the corpse mechanic.

i.e. you get +1% permanent gold and material income bonus and 1% increased exp gain for every lower rank of panic up to +4% at S, but you get one extra worker the next production phase for every higher panic rating.

Balance: Max panic immediately upon magic circle being hit or a hero dying, because when either happens, the player should also be panicking.

[CanuckBear]

I think the current 'panic' mechanic is adding a lot to the tactical level, it gives combat a very real purpose, very rewarding when finishing a night with an S rank, which is almost required consistently.

A mechanic to lower the panic would be interesting, but then the devs will make other things more difficult. The only solution is to achieve perfection, and stick to the meta :)

[BurntFaceMan]

Originally posted by CanuckBear:

I think the current 'panic' mechanic is adding a lot to the tactical level, it gives combat a very real purpose, very rewarding when finishing a night with an S rank, which is almost required consistently.

A mechanic to lower the panic would be interesting, but then the devs will make other things more difficult. The only solution is to achieve perfection, and stick to the meta :)

Well that's the biggest issue with the current system - it's jump on the meta or have a bad time and get your rewards taken away.

I don't mind the panic system overall, as generally I don't have issues s ranking most nights in a run until it gets really hectic, or just the boss wave - but my thoughts on why it should be changed are inspired by the recent outrage over the ballista nerf.

If you had to think why some people are so upset about it, I imagine the answer is because they feel they can't reliably s rank without having very powerful ballista to mop up anything getting close to or inside the walls.

Panic rewards players already doing well, and punishes those already struggling - fine if you can git gud, bad if you're not quite as capable.

I'd still say those people should be playing on boundless anyway.

Perhaps an omen that helps manage panic would be another solution.

[Ysen]

I've sometimes thought they should make high panic give less gold but much more materials as a reward. It would make sense thematically (people drop everything to build more defences if enemies get into town) and it would give you a chance to recover by helping you rebuild your defences (at the cost of worse economy).

It might create a weird incentive to let enemies in late-game if you've already got plenty of gold, though. Or lead to lame-duck scenarios where you're not dead yet but it's clear your economy isn't good enough to win the run.

[Samseng Yik]

If developer going to implement with that justification.
Humanity shouldn't even use gold to trade anymore.
We should not required to pay gold buy gear from shop.
I mean if the defenders screw up, the shopkeeper will be dead also right ?

[Furry Gang]

I think OP had some really insightful ideas about panic rework.

I think the core of the issue is that if you find yourself on the third night missing out on an item reward and extra economy, it feels like you're never going to get far enough ahead of the game to even make it to the end. "Play Perfectly" is absolutely a mentality that should be avoided, as I find the most engaging and exciting moments of this game are the ones where I feel like I'm barely holding it together against insurmountable odds!

I think the panic system as it represents an interesting idea, and fills a half decent mechanical purpose (an incentive to value the haven above the heroes). However I think that without some sort of trade-off to the downside of panic, it really does feel like a negative snowball.

There's been some discussion about creating a short-term benefit to panic that I think could be valuable and well implemented. I like the idea that as panic rises the heroes become more powerful in a desperate last ditch effort to save the day. I would also offer that the town could help the heroes by providing a different long-term resource other than gold and materials - health and mana. Imagine if ranking poorly on the panic meter, doing the worst you possibly could, resulted in double your typical health and mana regen. You'd still be economically damaged from the lack of resourced, but you'd be going into the next night fresh, with at least a chance to stop the snowballing.

I think there are a lot of ways to improve on the current system creatively if that is the desire of the developers, however I don't see much reason the mechanic can't be scrapped.

I don't think the game would be all that different if every night you received rewards as if you got an A or B rating on panic and that was that. A nightly item, and a decent spattering of resources seems fair enough to me, when there are already so many other systems at play to make the game engaging on the long-term.

Ultimately however, none of this is all that pressing. I think an adjustment is warranted, but I don't think it's going to change all that much. In truth if I struggle with S ranking the first night I typically just abandon before I waste my time in the first place.