Catapults are superior to other Defenses

[Redgomor]

1. Higher Skill Range
2. Physical Damage
3. Average Damage
4. More AoE
5. Manual Attacks
6. Undodgeable Attacks

Why are Ballista Nerfs so bad, that some of you even consider refunding the game for it?
Please change my mind, I am open to a discussion.

[Bumc]

The main "nerf" to defenses was a fix to defensive training.

Generally catapults are best used to chip off armor from big waves and ballistae -- to guard flanks against flyers and runners.
You're comparing apples to oranges.

[OrenD]

First of all, sorry for being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in other tread. I was somehow heated up by the changes and overall crowd mood. Okay, now to the topick. Not playing dumb or anything, I really want to know. I tried catapults, and they seemed pretty weak. Only 2 shots per thing (yeah, you can reload them, but that skill also had charges), damage is not great. I mean, overall damage, damage through the night so to speak. Based on how it felt for me. But maybe I should build more of them, I don't know. The point of ballistas exactly that you could just build those, and they would trim the weakest creatures really nice. And maybe I didn't notice, but aren't ballista attacks undodgeble as well? Also, you could leave some small patches of defences without heroes (depends on the wave, but it happened a couple of times), and ballistas defended the walls by themselves.

[OrenD]

Also, compared to catapults, ballistas are just easier to use, they are auto turrets (always loved those). I can't address the refund question, because I can't do it even if I wanted to (which I don't). My point is: ballistas are just much more handy and easier. And while they cost much, they were worth it. Now, they cost too much, ballista omen (can't remember the name) was nerfed, second attack was also nerfed. Ballista nerf is not "so bad", it's not tragically bad, but it's still bad. I'm sorry that I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just trying to explain why I (and many other people) am so upset because of it. I like difficult games (Battle Brazzers for example), but while they are difficult, they also give you options. Now, you can build ballistas of course, but it's painful. You can build walls (they are cheaper, which is good I think), but panic inducing scratches.

[Redgomor]

Hey OrenD, I am also sorry for what I've written on the other topic. I didn't mean to insult anyone and I just dropped right into the collateral damage.

I am looking at Catapults in different angles here. First of all, there are 2 types of experiences: The shared Experience and the Kill Experience.
The Shared Experience(SE) is like the name says a portion of Experience per kill, that gets shared between all heroes. The Kill Experience(KE) however only goes to the hero, that kills the target. There is the perk that shares the Kill Experience executed by Defenses to the hero, called "Defensive Training(DT)".
(It was coded wrong and was abuseable, if you are interested:
If an enemy dies, it gives a total of 12 Shared Experience, which means 4 Heroes/ 12 Experience = 3 Shared Experience per Hero.
A third of that Experience is always Killer Experience. So the Killer gets 3+4 Experience.
Old Defensive Training gave EVERY hero with DT the total amount of SE=12 + SE=3, instead of SE=3 + 4=KE.)

Now to the topic, thanks to Catapults being able to deal Average Damage, they can lower enemies Health Bars to a range, where Heroes can Kill them, taking the KE. This is especially good in the early, where most heroes don't have access to the DT Perk yet, or will never have.

Catapults have a high AoE and upgraded with the omen it increases to 5x5 units.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2053119361065861315/3230CF761E6C03F5CC8E51B20FE052AE72B89C26/

Catapults are not Killing Units per se, but they can also kill. The good thing about Catapults, is that they have Physical Damage and therefor dealing 200% more damage to armor. Especially on sides, that have Mages and Archers who struggle with Armors, it's a good addition.
Also Druids Staff Acid Spray has the same AoE as the Catapults AoE, a combination of both is still a very good combination.

Initially Ballistae were meant to be build to handle Stragglers or Isolated fast units approaching the wall first. @Bumc is right here, it is pretty much a comparison between apples and oranges.
But they have been so strong, that you could literally line them up, to kill the first line (+ the second line with the perk). If I am looking at it closer now, since they deal way less damage, I think the strategy would still work, as long as the ballistae don't kill the units, so the heroes can clear them up for the KE. Heck I am actually tempted to try a Ballista Wall now, it sounds exactly like my playstyle.

You are right, Ballistae and Catapults are both undodgeable. I was just lining up a few pros of Catapults and put that into the mix.


Also a few things regarding the Catapult Strat, I am a big Fan of the Chess Wall, which you can imagine as a wall being build in a chess-like manner. (O=Empty; X=Barricade)

XOXOXOX
OXOXOXO

If you have a linear wall, it's hard to make decent AoEs, but if the hordes approach ththe Chess Wall they line up perfectly for Catapults AoEs.
Moreover I think that Catapults are easier to use, because Ballistae cover a small portion of area, sometimes just dedicated to a single side, while Catapults being placed centrally (Next to the circle) can cover every side, so they are more versatile.
A Bunch of Catapults being placed centrally makes it easier to trigger, if a hero has the Defense Damage Increase perk, which's name I forgot. I most of the time activate Catapults at the end of a night, when I can oversee the total amount of left enemies. While Ballistae need the perk user most of the time, which makes it harder for the hero to be flexible.

I forgot a few other arguments while I wrote the text, but I think you get the main idea behind Catapults from my side of view.

[Bumc]

Chess wall is also better vs primary wall destroyers -- splitters and boomers, but its awkward if you're trying to minimize panic.
You either build it 1 tile deep and have to keep it clean, or you build it using barricades and it gets destroyed by a light breeze.

This kind of fortification is more of a last stand thing imo, same with a wooden box for mages and having extra diagonal separators in hamlet. You can hold a well built hamlet for ungodly amount of time even if everything is crumbling, because enemies always prioritize attacking heroes over walls.

[VG Purist]

I'm fairly sure that there are OP strats for all of the nerfs (and perhaps are all warranted) but all of the people with these strats had to have played for around 80++ hours to get until that point. This being a single player game, the time spent is more than enough game time for many folks to invest.

I myself have 140 hours plus played and this game has simply become more frustrating to play then fun. Before I could have fun and do different things and try to make it work, but now I have to go down a certain path or get mauled by monsters.

I really loved this game before all of the nerfs and honestly couldn't wait to beat the game until these patches came in. At this point, I wish I could refund the game but with 140 hours plus played, there's no way.

[OrenD]

Originally posted by Redgomor:

Hey OrenD, I am also sorry for what I've written on the other topic. I didn't mean to insult anyone and I just dropped right into the collateral damage.

I am looking at Catapults in different angles here. First of all, there are 2 types of experiences: The shared Experience and the Kill Experience.
The Shared Experience(SE) is like the name says a portion of Experience per kill, that gets shared between all heroes. The Kill Experience(KE) however only goes to the hero, that kills the target. There is the perk that shares the Kill Experience executed by Defenses to the hero, called "Defensive Training(DT)".
(It was coded wrong and was abuseable, if you are interested:
If an enemy dies, it gives a total of 12 Shared Experience, which means 4 Heroes/ 12 Experience = 3 Shared Experience per Hero.
A third of that Experience is always Killer Experience. So the Killer gets 3+4 Experience.
Old Defensive Training gave EVERY hero with DT the total amount of SE=12 + SE=3, instead of SE=3 + 4=KE.)

Now to the topic, thanks to Catapults being able to deal Average Damage, they can lower enemies Health Bars to a range, where Heroes can Kill them, taking the KE. This is especially good in the early, where most heroes don't have access to the DT Perk yet, or will never have.

Catapults have a high AoE and upgraded with the omen it increases to 5x5 units.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2053119361065861315/3230CF761E6C03F5CC8E51B20FE052AE72B89C26/

Catapults are not Killing Units per se, but they can also kill. The good thing about Catapults, is that they have Physical Damage and therefor dealing 200% more damage to armor. Especially on sides, that have Mages and Archers who struggle with Armors, it's a good addition.
Also Druids Staff Acid Spray has the same AoE as the Catapults AoE, a combination of both is still a very good combination.

Initially Ballistae were meant to be build to handle Stragglers or Isolated fast units approaching the wall first. @Bumc is right here, it is pretty much a comparison between apples and oranges.
But they have been so strong, that you could literally line them up, to kill the first line (+ the second line with the perk). If I am looking at it closer now, since they deal way less damage, I think the strategy would still work, as long as the ballistae don't kill the units, so the heroes can clear them up for the KE. Heck I am actually tempted to try a Ballista Wall now, it sounds exactly like my playstyle.

You are right, Ballistae and Catapults are both undodgeable. I was just lining up a few pros of Catapults and put that into the mix.


Also a few things regarding the Catapult Strat, I am a big Fan of the Chess Wall, which you can imagine as a wall being build in a chess-like manner. (O=Empty; X=Barricade)

XOXOXOX
OXOXOXO

If you have a linear wall, it's hard to make decent AoEs, but if the hordes approach ththe Chess Wall they line up perfectly for Catapults AoEs.
Moreover I think that Catapults are easier to use, because Ballistae cover a small portion of area, sometimes just dedicated to a single side, while Catapults being placed centrally (Next to the circle) can cover every side, so they are more versatile.
A Bunch of Catapults being placed centrally makes it easier to trigger, if a hero has the Defense Damage Increase perk, which's name I forgot. I most of the time activate Catapults at the end of a night, when I can oversee the total amount of left enemies. While Ballistae need the perk user most of the time, which makes it harder for the hero to be flexible.

I forgot a few other arguments while I wrote the text, but I think you get the main idea behind Catapults from my side of view.

Okay, that's an angle I didn't look from. I didn't know that defences steal XP before today, and I though that Defence Training perk was giving +XP to a hero somewhere near the defence which does the kill (which is logical, he saw it, he got some XP). I think devs didn't think everything through, like ballistas should actually help, not steal entirely, I built ballistas like crazy (I love turrets), and I didn't notice huge lack of XP only because I took +XP traits on level ups. Oh well, maybe they'll figure it out.
Thanks for the thorough explanation, I see your point. Catapult looks different to me now, much more useful, I think that I'll use them more now. Ballistas are still useful for those who slip through.

[Aestrea]

The strength of the ballista were that they activated AFTER the enemy moves but BEFORE the enemy attacks meaning that if a row of enemies approached your wall, they killed them before they can attack thus eliminating any damage to the walls for that turn, at least for the melee variety.

Catapults can get kind of messy with the very wide damage margin and if a group that size was close enough to your walls, your heroes will most definitely do a better job at shanking them. This also requires you to spend 2 omen slots for the square box which now deals even less damage to the corners.

[Aldain]

Maybe I'm just a bit odd, but I feel like they need some kind of upgrade option similar to the Balista.

Hell they could even make various options for it with options like a "Toxic Payload" that spreads a bit of poison or "Scattered Payload" which changes the shape to be more like how Shortbow's 4th skill works (for Isolation build fans).

As-is they're a nice softening/cleanup tool, but they feel like they fall off pretty hard the later in the nights you get to me.

[BrainDeadDad]

Changed my review to negative so pissed about the single player TD aspect of defensive buildings especially ballista getting ripped to nerf heaven..Just leave it alone hard enough as is..probably not starting a new campaign if this is the direction the developers are going..went from favorite game to back of the shelf in one update noticed a lot of people are feeling this way.

[ragtimeblues]

My thoughts on Catapults is that they're marginally useful to soften enemies when ahead in materials, but subpar otherwise and you are still better of with a Ballista. Just going by default here, you get 2 shots a night, each shot can hit 13 enemies, so 26 enemies can be hit per catapult. However, the damage is so low that it often takes both shots to clear out the weakest enemies. So at best, most nights you clear out 13 enemies. In practicality though, you're hitting maybe 50% of that or less because of its weird cone. It's just wildly inefficient and entirely dependent on enemies being clumped together.

A Ballista on the other hand will always hit a target in range, is upgrade-able without omens, and picks off weak mobs and single targets reliably with no waste. It also has no ammo, meaning you never have to worry about what targets to hit, because there's no cap on how many enemies it can take down. Plus, Ballistas really shine with enemies right up against your wall, which is where you want to kill them. Not only do they often kill weak mobs there, but that also stop Panic generation. The value is immense compared to maybe offing a small cluster of enemies out of the hundreds in the night, far from the optimal zone.

The Ballista nerf (along with waves and corpses) is particularly heavy, because it makes playing in that optimal zone around your base a lot harder to manage. You won't be able to build Ballistas fast enough to cover the power gap from facing bigger waves and a worse worker ratio on Mountains. Catapults didn't have that capability in the first place, so I don't see them becoming the go-to choice.

[Purple Sauce]

because ballista are generally cheaper and can be stacked. They also attack before the enemy does and allows you to forget about them. They also have infinite ammo while catapults do not unless you waste a perk slot which is generally not worth it. Nerfing ballistas makes ZERO sense when you have to play for 50+ hours to even start reasonably using them as a strategy (not just a damage boost but an actual strat to beat a level) and why SHOULDN'T you be rewarded for playing this game this long?

[dq_177]

Un-nerf ballistae.

[Nneu]

Canons damage is poor and ballistas get like 12+ shots a night while canons get two. Cans are also more expensive.

[Samseng Yik]

People refunding the game has their attitude problem .
I embrace developer latest changes and I am always highly adaptable