Weapon rating

[Včelí medvídek]

Now after conquer all maps and entering Apo. levels I would like discuss experience with weapons - mostly to see if there is some consensus or tips/Ideas how utilize weapons better (maybe perks how make them viable? etc)

First of all I would like to discusss Specialist perk - for me it is no brainer, picking it 100% time when it is available - 50% damage and extra usage of weapon attacks is simply too strong. I tried some combinations (eg. shortbow + longbow) but barely found them useful - either there is no reason for switch to other weapon to utilize available AP{ or they benefit from different bonuses (like isolation vs momentum) to good enough. I simply cna not find real situation that would justify combo different weapons instead take specialist for such major boost.

1) Ranged

S tier - pistol - probably best weapon in game, excellent in offhand too for 2 extra attacks. My most powerful builds ever were dual pistols - with extra range and enough AP + MP he move around like devil one shot multiple hard targets in single turn, never get harmed as he easily pass lkong distances by grappling to safety. Only draw is single AOE but it is usually enough to clear whole group. I can usually defend one side of wall with one of such char + defenses only and he easily outshine anyone rest of the team. Also consume almost no mana, allowing extra scrolls to spend his daily gain.

A tier - shortbow, longbow

Shortbow - great weapon overall, many single targets that need no special condition, 2x AOE, reliable in msot situation. Range cna be always increased evne though it stay lower than longbow or rifle, not well suited for static defense but also one of most realible damege dealer overall - one of cons is that use all abilkities on max he consume lot of mana every turn. (which cna be solved by extra regen or potions though)

Longbow - longest range usually but too much dependant on isolation bonus which is not always viable without it the damage is not so good. Snipeshot is not so superb at all either (talking about lvl 12+ with gear where is is not sufficient to take down advanced/elite enemies - things what eg chars with momentum bonus can do). At least AOE is somehow decent, can even clear or at least stun 2 mobs groups which is fine.

B - tier Rifle - similar as longbow but no isolation need on regular attack (required for Assasinate though) good damage but again not so good enough late game to one shot all harder enemies + it cost 2 AP. Hip shot miss too often and Suppresive fire is mostly just debuff. usually char with rifle pickup few harder targets every turn but overall he lack behind what other ranged do. Ultimate boss killer with focusing all shots to isolated target though.

C - Tier - crossbow, hand crossbow

Crossbow - need of narrow attack is really bad as it is often to position well, also heavy shot accurascy penalty sucks. implaing and expklosive can do good AOE but thats about it. Straight shot is good standard atatck but no bonus - nothing that other ranged cna not do much better.

Hand crossbow - can not find good usage for this. I ahve yet to see Multi-hit weapon/char to work. In theory it is great but never I ahd good character enough for it to shine. Single target poison is meh, Blaze is great but propagation is also bit unrealiable.I believe this is weapon that can work betetr but so far no luck for me.

2) Melee

S tier - 1 h hammer. The first melee weapon and stays the best. I had several really great hammer users that kills and stuns dozens of enemies every turn being able keep their side of wall safe and laugh to hordes of enemies that surrounds them (well untill magic users or spearmens comes in:p Good to add sword to off hand for extra mobility or sokme ncie shields with extra bonuses and Boom is king, allowing them to clear groups byb single AP hit even on range. 2 hammer users were what won Elderlicht map for me. Literally - 10 AP, 15 MP they were moving around kiilling waves of enemies and pushing vessels down.

A tier - 1h sword. Able to raise really high single damage thanks momentum and good mobility around but I often struggle have good position to hit all enemies enemies + free spot to land rush and dash efficient way. Still it is better melee for sure.

B tier - Spear, Dagger

Spear - Maybe if i would play with spear more I would rate i higher, really high damage output with couple AOE or mulkti attacks. The msot I tried worked very well, way better than all other 2 hand weapons for sure.

Dagger - also tried only little, the melee isolation sucks but both ranbged attacks worked. Though I still think instead close range melee why not build ranged char instead...

C tier - axe, 2h-axe, 2h-sword,. Sledgehammer - eeehh, ok. I think I miss something with those. All has low damage (especially considering 2h so no shield or offhand), opaque siutuational attacks with sepcific area of hit, AP expensive... not like high level char can not work with those, but no matter what I tried, build character with any other weapon always brought significantly better result.

3) Magic

S tier - Tome - major draw is mana usage 9again solvable witth potions somehow), but fireball + Lighting strike cna do so much work in single run, cleaning rest with shadow bolts. I am not good in using debuffs but taking high resistance buffs helps.

A tier - Druid staff, Magic scepter

Druid staff - once build poison high enough (300%...) and enough propagation it is easy. kill ~30+ enemies of all tiers per turn. it helps poison has its own perk tree. Centepide with opportunism helps kill elite targets once poisoned (and even better + stunned). At high levels my Druid staff users became most powerful group damage dealers clearing great enemy numbers every turn (also coutnering some enmy aoe buff). Only bad if enemy happens be in too small groups for poison propagation.

Scepter - another momentum weapon that allow build up large damage and with enough AP + MP can clear couple enemies every turn + hammer of faith with propagation to hit groups. Still it lack behind pistol due absence of grappling and less reliable group targeting. Good it is single hand allowing complement offhand option or shield.

B tier - Wand, Orb

Wand - again multi hit weapon I was unable to build good character for. Without it the base attack is just... basic.It works but no extra bonus.

Orb -the Aoe poison is nowhere clsoe what Druid staff does. Death ray need extra positioning which cna be iften tricky to achieve and basic attack is fro isolation bonus - good for isolated targets but worse than longbow for the purpose. At least offer second ahnd to complement with something a bit.

C tier - none.

D tier - power staff.. like what. I am not sure but almost melee mage is not good Idea imho, the damage is low, debuff to accuracy bit useless. Stunning entrance super situational and stun chance low. The AOE stays but even lvl 14 magic dealer with power staff he lacked behind all other chars a lot. Maybe it is not so much worse than 2h melee but it was very dissapointing for me. It needs various "melee" stats that dont benefit from... just really strange weapon i have hard time to justify use so imho the worst weapon overall.

[puschit]

I think the wand deserves to be A tier because of the transfer skill. It does not just give you flexibility when you move APs to other characters, it also buffs in the process. If you have two of them they can buff each other for free! Only tricky part is that you cannot raise APs above the starting amount, so you have to use up one AP first, which generally isn't problem as long as you remember to do so.

[Bumc]

The list is kinda upside down if you're actually trying to win the game.

Any list that doesn't have hand crossbow in S tier is kinda invalid, sorry.
Wand have like 25% offensive power of hand crossbow, but they still are probably scratching S tier just because of their utility.

[Flavalicious]

Longbow is kinda dog. In some niche situations its nice to have as a backup weapon if you need to jump in a tower and fire across the map for some reason, but the 1 hand xbow definitely needs to be higher on your list. Beyond having multiple clutch abilities, its #1 slot bypasses armour entirely. 8-9 action points on a character with 5-8 multishot and you can literally machine gun mow down the tankiest mobs in the game.

Sceptor is definitely S tier and arguably the best weapon in the game. Power staff is a pain in the ass, I also didn't enjoy using it, but it can definitely be powerful. I also prefer the orb over the staff for poison builds. The druid staff is a better weapon, but I like the control I get from the orb, don't need to factor in the bounce effect going in the wrong direction or being goofy.

I agree with your physical melee weapons though. Loved 1 hammer, loved 1h sword maybe even more. Didnt hate dagger. Had a rough time getting most of the 2 handed weapons to work out, just really like the offhand weapon combos with reload to give you a 2nd free shot.

Specialist perk is strong but i don't agree with it being a mandatory pick. That 50% damage and an extra use comes at the cost of 2 stat slots and a whole lot of utility (tossing a weapon with + action points, movement or multishot bonuses in there can all scale better then a flat 50% boost). Sometimes you want a teleportation orb, or sceptor in your pocket for mobility casts. On appoc 1 it probably doesn't seam as important as it will in higher difficulties.

[ShadowDark3]

I agree with what a few others have said, the list is kind of backwards. Multishot is incredibly powerful, plus ignoring armour is huge, and only requires 1H. Easy S-tier. Momentum weapons are great but I would take sword over pistol any day. The double damage to armour and more perks that take advantage of melee attacks makes them very strong.

I also agree that Specialist isn't mandatory. It can be very strong, but if you have a hero with heaps of action points you end up doing more damage by having two weapon sets (not to mention all the bonus stats you gain from the extra set).

I think the flaw with your tier list is that it goes from S all the way down to D, when really every weapon is at the very least useful given the proper situation and stat allocation. It also really depends on your play style. I wouldn't put any weapons below B-tier.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Flavalicious:

Longbow is kinda dog. In some niche situations its nice to have as a backup weapon if you need to jump in a tower and fire across the map for some reason, but the 1 hand xbow definitely needs to be higher on your list. Beyond having multiple clutch abilities, its #1 slot bypasses armour entirely. 8-9 action points on a character with 5-8 multishot and you can literally machine gun mow down the tankiest mobs in the game.

I found hard pair longbow with anything beside rifle. usually I sit on tower with ~ 20 range and amke other chars make isolated targets for it. No enemy is often close enough to use other short ranged.

As for the hand crossbow I must give it m,ore chance but getting multihit in leveling seems be more rare than AP.

Originally posted by Flavalicious:

Sceptor is definitely S tier and arguably the best weapon in the game. Power staff is a pain in the ass, I also didn't enjoy using it, but it can definitely be powerful. I also prefer the orb over the staff for poison builds. The druid staff is a better weapon, but I like the control I get from the orb, don't need to factor in the bounce effect going in the wrong direction or being goofy.

Why you think scepter is so good? As I said it ways very similar to pistol, but lacks the grapple so can not so easily move around to build such huge momentum every AP or move point used.

The power staff did solid damage at end but really see nothing good on it, all other chars killed much more, more stronger at that point and almsot melee range for its abilities was terrible draw.

Originally posted by Flavalicious:

Specialist perk is strong but i don't agree with it being a mandatory pick. That 50% damage and an extra use comes at the cost of 2 stat slots and a whole lot of utility (tossing a weapon with + action points, movement or multishot bonuses in there can all scale better then a flat 50% boost). Sometimes you want a teleportation orb, or sceptor in your pocket for mobility casts. On appoc 1 it probably doesn't seam as important as it will in higher difficulties.

Wait. the bonuses in second slot are applied all time even for currently unequiped set?

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by ShadowDark3:

I agree with what a few others have said, the list is kind of backwards. Multishot is incredibly powerful, plus ignoring armour is huge, and only requires 1H. Easy S-tier. Momentum weapons are great but I would take sword over pistol any day. The double damage to armour and more perks that take advantage of melee attacks makes them very strong.

Oh well it is my experience. I dont see why having other experience should make it invalid. As said above My gripe with multishot weapons was I never was lucky enough to make character that would be good with it (roll multishot during leveling in particular).

The pistol for me is great cus if you have range 8 or smth on grapple it is very easy build up huge momentum bonuses couple of times per turn, where sword user has to run around a lot more, making less momentum bonus overall. Also having issue with sword to enter big groups (ot edge of map/fog) as he can not pass with dash or rush cus missing empty spot where land, grapple has absolutely no limit for this.

Originally posted by ShadowDark3:

I also agree that Specialist isn't mandatory. It can be very strong, but if you have a hero with heaps of action points you end up doing more damage by having two weapon sets (not to mention all the bonus stats you gain from the extra set).

Same question as above - the second slot bonuses are active for unequiped gear too? The AP usage is situational , depend on weapons too. I choosed the 50% as better but if the bonuses for 2nd slot are still active I will definitly re-evaluate this.

Originally posted by ShadowDark3:

I think the flaw with your tier list is that it goes from S all the way down to D, when really every weapon is at the very least useful given the proper situation and stat allocation. It also really depends on your play style. I wouldn't put any weapons below B-tier.

Well, it is just to distinguish the gear in cathegories and how they worked and participated to team during whole game.

So of course all weapons can single kill most mobs in last weaves with basic attacks or that there can be some specific composition or position of enemies where they become great one time. But over whole game I had this experience, while some characters/weapons made their outstanding performance every night, for other they waited for their chance (and sometime it never came)

Every opinion is subjective giving by each one playstyle - thats the reason e discuss to see others subjective opinions and experience (and maybe take something out of it).

[Bumc]

Yes the bonus stats are applied for the secondary weapon set as well.
In the early game its relevant to stack block from shields on a same character, later on weapons provide good stats on their own, and some stuff like daggers can be used mostly as stat sticks.

[Bumc]

To put 50% damage from specialist in perspective, carrying just a wand in offhand already provides you with 30+% damage boost as long as you have a buddy in range to juggle Transfer with. And it doubles to 60+% if you happen to have Blessing.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Bumc:

To put 50% damage from specialist in perspective, carrying just a wand in offhand already provides you with 30+% damage boost as long as you have a buddy in range to juggle Transfer with. And it doubles to 60+% if you happen to have Blessing.

Thats really interesting, thanks.

[Flavalicious]

Yea so multi-shot as a build sort of happens organically. Your not really looking to make an OP multi-shotter from level 1 on, you sort of just build into it as your characters level up and the option is presented. You ideally want 1-2 multishot from levels, another 1-2 from gear and then the talent. A caster character i would make into a multishot wand build would run spellbook UNLESS those options presented itself while building. The multishot 1 handed bow would probably end up being a shortbow/whatever else build if the multishot doesnt present itself.

I wouldn't try to force it if the option doesnt present itself. The game does drastically change once your in Apoc 3+, so some of the advise given won't really click until you see it first hand haha

[свалов семен]

I stopped reading after finding hand crossbow in bottom tier, sorry. Strongest weapon in a whole game below bows and rifle, are you serious?

[Tactical Drongo]

I always find those weapon ratings fun as opinions from people go in so wildly different directions

I think that is a sign of the weapons being largely balanced against each other so it comes down to personal taste

[Bumc]

Its personal taste, people ignoring broken builds, and difference between apocalypse levels.

Pistol is a good example -- as soon as you crank everyone's hp by 30%, suddenly its grappling hook becomes quite an unreliable mobility tool, as you often cannot one-shot anything except runners.

[DarkFenix]

The hand crossbow is far and away the best ranged weapon, the only caveat being that it needs extra multi shot to work. If you also find a bunch of bonus range, then the spear and dagger also make excellent ranged weapons (and the knife makes a better poisoner than the druid staff too).

Basically anything with multi-attack is king when it comes to damage output. Propagate can deal a huge amount too, though obviously that falls off once the wave thins out.

[свалов семен]

Originally posted by Tactical Drongo:

I always find those weapon ratings fun as opinions from people go in so wildly different directions

I think that is a sign of the weapons being largely balanced against each other so it comes down to personal taste

Nope, personal taste ends for high apocalypse (5-6, 6th one is just about more randomness for stats' penalties rather about your skill but anyway we playing there) and becomes flaw in game's knowledge. You can beat A0 even without meta unlocks because it is easy mode but for high difficulty in last two towns (mostly Elderlicht because it harder than Glintfein IMO) you will lose if your weapon's rankings wlll be like one from TS. Some weapons have lack of AoE, some have no singletarget, some (2H sword) is just trash that you should not use except for stat sticks if you haven't found something better while some weapons like Xbow have means for almost any situation in the game. Pure math and effectiveness, no personal taste