Are you supposed to lose the first game?

[Butcher]

By that I mean some-burg, not tutorial. 3 heroes are simply not enough to cover 3 directions while you are waiting for boss to land. Then they buff zombies movement and you instalose. Unlocked ballistas only on the last wave.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2841157233

[Vexille]

no, you can win, also without ballistae

[Butcher]

Well, lancers on the south should be held by a tank since no way you can kill them fast enough. Minus one hero.

So 2 left.
One direction could be held by 1 hero(while mana is here to spam lightning), another hero should be AOE oriented too I guess? Then how do you kill harpy itself, which takes you away from horde cleaning for 1-2 turns?

[Bumc]

Keep in mind that by the virtue of scrolls existing any hero can do decent AoE in a pinch.
Plus there are other ways to circumvent ♥♥♥♥ starting AP on a first run -- namely perks.
My Gildenberg mage had 3 AP base, but he managed to blast 20+ magic missiles per turn between energy gain for assassinations and mana spent.

[Leiraion]

To answer your question directly:
Are you expected to lose on Gildenberg (the first map after the tutorial) the first time?
Yes

Is it possible to win Gildenberg on run #0, fresh save? Yes
With high game knowledge it's not particularly hard. But you would have very low game knowledge on your first time playing the game. If you win Gildenberg on your first run as a brand new player that would be remarkable.
Sort of like in Hades, you CAN win on your first run, but you almost definitely won't.

Meta progression in the game makes you significantly stronger, try to pick out some things you want to focus on unlocking and make that your goal for the run, not necessarily victory.

I'd recommend focusing on the +AP (action point) metas and keep in mind that Catapults are stronger than Ballista.

[KocLobster]

Originally posted by Butcher:

By that I mean some-burg, not tutorial. 3 heroes are simply not enough to cover 3 directions while you are waiting for boss to land. Then they buff zombies movement and you instalose. Unlocked ballistas only on the last wave.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2841157233

For most people, the answer is yes, you should expect to die the first time or two. Meta unlocks (tainted essence turn-ins & the other angel lady) & slowly getting a feel for the different mechanics and how to optimize what enemies to attack with what skills and when, takes time & practice.

That said, I managed to beat Gildenberg on my first try (or maybe it was 2nd & I abandoned halfway thru the 1st attempt, can't recall), the very first time playing this game with no prior knowledge or unlocks, no ballista, etc. So I know it's possible.


Oh, and since it isn't really obvious & there isn't a lot of info on this game/bosses, I'll mention that you should make sure you're killing those harpies as quickly as possible. Killing all the small harpies ones are what get the big ones to show up, and killing the 3 big birds ends the night. If you don't do this you'll just fight a constantly spawning, unlimited number of zombies I believe.

[Lykurgos]

On my first run, I made it to the third harpy thing before failing hard.

Now, five runs further in, I know of at least a dozen things I would have done differently, and do now do differently, that are simply knowledge based and not reliant on meta-progression unlocks.

So I would hazard that it is *possible* to win a first run, but also very unlikely, and the far more probable outcome is a loss.

For a game with roguelike features, personally, that is absolutely what I welcome. If I could win first runs whilst being mostly ignorant of game mechanics, tactics and strategies, I would be a bit wary of lack of depth.

[kory]

Originally posted by Lykurgos:

For a game with roguelike features, personally, that is absolutely what I welcome. If I could win first runs whilst being mostly ignorant of game mechanics, tactics and strategies, I would be a bit wary of lack of depth.

Certainly a roguelike should require a few games before a first win, but I dislike that this game does it with unlocks rather than real difficulty. Plenty of roguelikes force you to get better at the game instead of restricting bonuses from you to make you play it multiple times.

[Bumc]

Again, nobody is forces you, there's always a choice -- either git gud enough so you can win in the first try or grind up.
Now whether allowing that choice is a good practice is an another question, but I bet if they didn't allow the grind route they would have been review bombed by people who got stuck and gave up on the game.
If you look closer, other rogue-likes almost always also have that backdoor option for people who refuse to git gud, regulated either by a run luck or meta unlocks.

[Butcher]

Unsurprisingly won on the 2nd try by using mines, factories and ballistas:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2841534540
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2841534706
Power level difference with and without unlocks is huge.

Originally posted by Bumc:

Again, nobody is forces you, there's always a choice -- either git gud enough so you can win in the first try or grind up.
Now whether allowing that choice is a good practice is an another question, but I bet if they didn't allow the grind route they would have been review bombed by people who got stuck and gave up on the game.
If you look closer, other rogue-likes almost always also have that backdoor option for people who refuse to git gud, regulated either by a run luck or meta unlocks.

So can you theoretically win EVERY mission without any unlocks? Or what unlock level is acceptable to be "gud"? I won, but not feeling it, really. It wasn't a skill that carried me, but unlocks.

Roguelikes do not feature meta-progression. In games like ADOM, Wazhack and Rogue itself if you die - you start from the very beginning with nothing carried out. But even in semi-roguelites like Tales of Maj Eyal you unlock only classes and races, which require you to learn playing them. Here with super strong unlocks the victory feels hollow.

[Bumc]

Okay, we're back to roguelikes vs rogue-lites or whatever do you call a genre where you add progression to Rogue's main formula (permadeath + procedural generation).
They almost don't make ones without progression anymore and for a good reason, these do appeal to significantly smaller player base.

I'm not sure you can win, say, Glenwald apoc6 without any unlocks, but you can (and I did that) win all missions in any given order using only unlocks you acquire in the process.

[Vexille]

Originally posted by Butcher:

Here with super strong unlocks the victory feels hollow.

Of course your victory will feel hollow if you play just the first map, which is considered (by the game itself) the easiest. The upgrades you get by trading Tainted Essence is not just a way to make the game easier, it's a tool to actually beat the game. You need all those unlocks to complete Glenwald on Apocalypse 6.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by Vexille:

Originally posted by Butcher:

Here with super strong unlocks the victory feels hollow.

Of course your victory will feel hollow if you play just the first map, which is considered (by the game itself) the easiest. The upgrades you get by trading Tainted Essence is not just a way to make the game easier, it's a tool to actually beat the game. You need all those unlocks to complete Glenwald on Apocalypse 6.

What is Apocalypse 6? Like NG++++++?

Are there any new content like in Dead Cells/Slay the Spire to encourage to keep playing?

And unlocks, dark one dialogue indicates that spending essense is not very bueno and can give negative effect, do hordes scale with upgrades/new enemy types unlock/she appears as boss when you unlock everything?

[Leiraion]

The apocalypse levels add a fair amount of difficulty to the game.
From https://thelastspell.fandom.com/wiki/Game_difficulty
Apocalypse 1: Enemies have +20% Health
Apocalypse 2: Enemy waves are +30% bigger (total XP gained remains the same)
Apocalypse 3: Mist Censers appear, spreading Thin Mist in the battlefield
Apocalypse 4: Gold and Material prices increase by 20%
Apocalypse 5: Enemies have +1 Movement Points (Runners, Crawlers and Winged have +2 instead)
Apocalypse 6: Items have negative stat gains (except starting gear)


The future maps are also notably more difficult as you progress as well.
For example, Glenwald is very obviously much more difficult than Gildenberg.

Apoc 6 Gildenberg is very easy compared to apoc 6 Glenwald.

[Bumc]

Apoc 2 is already very hard to push through first 3 days between bigger and fatter waves without meta unlocks

[Lykurgos]

Originally posted by kory:

Originally posted by Lykurgos:

For a game with roguelike features, personally, that is absolutely what I welcome. If I could win first runs whilst being mostly ignorant of game mechanics, tactics and strategies, I would be a bit wary of lack of depth.

Certainly a roguelike should require a few games before a first win, but I dislike that this game does it with unlocks rather than real difficulty. Plenty of roguelikes force you to get better at the game instead of restricting bonuses from you to make you play it multiple times.

Yup, understood indeed.

I happen to love meta-progression / unlocks, with many of my favourite, maybe it is correct to call them rogue-lites rather than roguelikes, featuring them heavily. This meaning stuff like Slay the Spire, Monster Train, Roguebook, Vault of the Void, Across the Obelisk et al.

Taking just one example, Slay, heck, you absolutely cannot "complete" the game within a first run, you even have to unlock the ability to reach the true boss, in addition to the cards and relics that will give you a better chance to do it.

Yet I also see that there is a significant number of folks who do not like this meta-progression stuff, and prefer a game where if it is present, it is not at all needed to be able to win / complete / succeed. The Last Spell seems to cater far more for my preference.