Organic Armor * Coagulation?

[DurableMirror4]

How would these two perks interact with each other? Would Coagulation just cause your health to skyrocket as you increase your health regen so that health regen is effectively also increasing your max health?

[sanguinae666]

Taking into account that armor is effective life per each turn, Organic armor isn't worth it.

[WadeStar]

Except that melee attacks are 200% effective against armor, and there is a perk that increases damage with HP amount.

That said, I also think it's hard to make a non-armor build work. So far.

Regardless, I'd like an answer to the OP's question rather than a discussion about whether HP is better than armor or not.

[sanguinae666]

Originally posted by WadeStar:

Except that melee attacks are 200% effective against armor, and there is a perk that increases damage with HP amount.

That said, I also think it's hard to make a non-armor build work. So far.

Regardless, I'd like an answer to the OP's question rather than a discussion about whether HP is better than armor or not.

We need between 5-7 turns at least to finish a normal night, even if certain attacks do 200% damage to armor, armor is at least 500-700% more effective and that without taking into account that that the ratio of conversion fo Organic armor is 75%... Just as an explanation, let's say you take organic armor and exchange 200 armor into 150 life, so each hit now directly affects your life (affecting the result of the night), even if there are certain attacks that do 200% damage to shield(making it 50% less effective against only melee) which is considered after block; i'm not so sure about resistance, If I'm not wrong all multiplicative effects are applied at the same time, anyway those 200 armour are equivalent to 1000-1400 effective life per night in general, 500-750 if you are only attacked by melee, instead of 150 total while using Organic armor.

Let's put an example: 1 enemy makes a melee attack of 100, you have 20 block and 20 resistance.
Option 1, 200 armor: (100 - 20) x (2 x 0.8) = 80 x 1.6 = 128, so you end with 72 surplus armor and each turn you get your 200 armor back.
Option2, Organic armor(150 additional life) = (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life and 86 surplus life.

Let's go for the worst scenario in 1 turn, 4 melee hits:
Option 1, 200 armor:
First hit: (100 - 20) x (2 x 0.8) = 80 x 1.6 = 128, so you end with 72 surplus armor.
Second hit: (100 - 20) x (2 x 0.8) = 80 x 1.6 = 128, 72 previous armor - 128 = 56 damage directly to life.
Third hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 , 110 damage to life.
Fourth hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 , 174 damage to life.
Option2, Organic armor(150 additional life):
First hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life. Surplus of 86 life.
Second hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life. Surplus of 22 life.
Third hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 , Total of 42 damage directly to life.
Fourth hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 , Total of 106 damage to life.

But, what happens in the next turn when you get hit again 4 times in melee?
Option 1, 200 armor:
First hit: (100 - 20) x (2 x 0.8) = 80 x 1.6 = 128, so you end with 72 surplus armor and 174 damage to life.
Second hit: (100 - 20) x (2 x 0.8) = 80 x 1.6 = 128, 72 previous armor - 128 = 56 damage directly to life so we end with a net loss of 230 life.
Third hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 , 294 damage to life.
Fourth hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 , 358 damage to life.
Option2, Organic armor(150 additional life):
First hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life. Total of 170 damage to life.
Second hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life. Total of 234 damage to life.
Third hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life. Total of 298 damage to life.
Fourth hit: (100 - 20) x (0.8) = 64 damage directly to life. Total of 362 damage to life.
After the third turn in the first option you regain your armor again and in the second option you keep piling damage directly to health.

Sooooo... even taking into account the worst case scenario, in the second turn of receiving damage NOT taking Organic armor is more efficient, and this efficiency increase with the number of turns.

About the answer to the OP... As I was implying in my previous answer, yes it does, but it's not worth it, because conversion rate in both perks are BS.

In terms of survivaity AND damage It's 100 times better to get Critical Runes, Coagulation and Head-on than Bodybuilder, Coagulation and Organic armor.

[DurableMirror4]

I greatly appreciate the confirmation on how the perks interact with each other as well as the rundown on effectiveness of the different perks being paired!

[Deadweight]

I've had some good luck with a pure HP melee build. With 2 shields and some good loot, with a couple of the perks mentioned here, hero had some 600 HP and enough block to only take a little chip damage every attack (if not dodged), then heal it all back with vampire.

[sanguinae666]

Originally posted by Deadweight:

I've had some good luck with a pure HP melee build. With 2 shields and some good loot, with a couple of the perks mentioned here, hero had some 600 HP and enough block to only take a little chip damage every attack (if not dodged), then heal it all back with vampire.

The thing is that your hero could only survive because he was melee with a lot of block and vampire in any other case it becomes imposible to survive.
Anyway the difference in damage between taking organic armor with Bodybuilder is about 10-14% phys damage (in a 600 max hp it got 48% increase in phys but without organic armor it should be something about 34-38%) losing a lot of survivability, but taking Critical Runes, and Head-on, you keep your survivabilty and increse crit by a lot depending of current mana and gain 15% phys damage and ignore block of enemies when you move.

[Bumc]

You can also stack healing % effectiveness and sustain with Vampire/toxic leech/pots, but currently it feels like there are too few sources of % effectiveness to bother and it doesn't scale nearly well enough to compete with armor "natural regen".

[sanguinae666]

Originally posted by Bumc:

You can also stack healing % effectiveness and sustain with Vampire/toxic leech/pots, but currently it feels like there are too few sources of % effectiveness to bother and it doesn't scale nearly well enough to compete with armor "natural regen".

Try to heal 600 hp with potions or toxic leach... and again, toxic leach could only be used by tanks because it need the hero to be in 5 range of the enemy while he gets damaged by poison... So it's completly useless in any other case, and anyway it heals 2 life... even if you have 250% effectiveness at the end of the run it heals 5 life... then you need to survive the hits from that same enemy, you get healed 5 and got hit for maybe 50-70 as a tank?

[Bumc]

You only get hit by 4 enemies excluding ranged (less if you brace to an obstacle) and without double-to-armor their damage isn't close to 600... but yeah, numbers on toxic leech seem really low to be ever viable as a relevant sustain source.
I'm surprised they didn't go for anything that would actually heal you on taking poison damage, that would be a fun minigame trying to poison yourself enough to break armor&heal, but not enough to actually die to being armor broken in range of enemies.

[NixBoxDone]

Originally posted by sanguinae666:

Taking into account that armor is effective life per each turn, Organic armor isn't worth it.

Not on its own, but there's some stuff to consider there. One of those things is that you can build armor that gives resistance and block as opposed to armor. Doing that means you lose nothing from going for massive max hp.
Add the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and vampirism or the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 and you're getting a really viable combination there.

To be fair though, you probably need the exact right perks and some really good luck with the armor pieces for that, while going for armor is kinda easy. Get coagulated blood, stack armor and block, position yourself so you don't get hit by more than 1 or 2 enemies until you've got like 150 + armor and you're gonna do just fine.

[sanguinae666]

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Not on its own, but there's some stuff to consider there. One of those things is that you can build armor that gives resistance and block as opposed to armor. Doing that means you lose nothing from going for massive max hp.
Add the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and vampirism or the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 and you're getting a really viable combination there.

To be fair though, you probably need the exact right perks and some really good luck with the armor pieces for that, while going for armor is kinda easy. Get coagulated blood, stack armor and block, position yourself so you don't get hit by more than 1 or 2 enemies until you've got like 150 + armor and you're gonna do just fine.

You thoughts seems to be all over the place...
1st: You could never get in the same hero the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 because both in tier 2 of the warrior column
2nd: In the last 2-3 runs i have never got vampirism in the melee heroes and you want to get the perfect combo of perks?? GL!
3rd: If you equip only equipment with block and resistance instead of armor... then Organic armor lose all it's meaning.

[NixBoxDone]

Originally posted by sanguinae666:

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Not on its own, but there's some stuff to consider there. One of those things is that you can build armor that gives resistance and block as opposed to armor. Doing that means you lose nothing from going for massive max hp.
Add the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and vampirism or the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 and you're getting a really viable combination there.

To be fair though, you probably need the exact right perks and some really good luck with the armor pieces for that, while going for armor is kinda easy. Get coagulated blood, stack armor and block, position yourself so you don't get hit by more than 1 or 2 enemies until you've got like 150 + armor and you're gonna do just fine.

You thoughts seems to be all over the place...
1st: You could never get in the same hero the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 because both in tier 2 of the warrior column
2nd: In the last 2-3 runs i have never got vampirism in the melee heroes and you want to get the perfect combo of perks?? GL!
3rd: If you equip only equipment with block and resistance instead of armor... then Organic armor lose all it's meaning.

2-3 runs isn't really a lot in a game with this much RNG, though. I've had vampirism three runs going, for example.
The one time I got a character I felt would work with that perk, I took a lot of level ups for flat armor to make the resist/block thing work. Was one of my longer runs though. Sometimes I wipe out way too early to even think about doing this and that makes it kind of a risky choice.
I could end up sabotaging myself by trying to go for this. >_>

[Sykomyke]

Originally posted by sanguinae666:

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Not on its own, but there's some stuff to consider there. One of those things is that you can build armor that gives resistance and block as opposed to armor. Doing that means you lose nothing from going for massive max hp.
Add the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and vampirism or the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 and you're getting a really viable combination there.

To be fair though, you probably need the exact right perks and some really good luck with the armor pieces for that, while going for armor is kinda easy. Get coagulated blood, stack armor and block, position yourself so you don't get hit by more than 1 or 2 enemies until you've got like 150 + armor and you're gonna do just fine.

You thoughts seems to be all over the place...
1st: You could never get in the same hero the perk that gives 20 % of your max hp as reflect damage and the skill that gives extra damage per 20 hp over 180 because both in tier 2 of the warrior column
2nd: In the last 2-3 runs i have never got vampirism in the melee heroes and you want to get the perfect combo of perks?? GL!
3rd: If you equip only equipment with block and resistance instead of armor... then Organic armor lose all it's meaning.

Sanguine's thoughts on the game are "If you don't play exactly the same hyper efficient way every game (my way), you're not playing the game right".

This is highlighted by your snarky comment of "You want to get perfect combo of perks. GL"

Every time you tried to come up with a counter argument to someone trying something out of the box you moved the goalpost.

First post: I got a fun game to work with organic armor and coag.
Sanguine: Nuh uh, that's not the hyper efficient way to play the game. Here's some napkin math ignoring other stats.
Rebuttal: But what about resistances, other perks that synergize with max hp? Even block?
Sanguine: Nuh uh, still not efficient.

Like seriously dude, it's ok to have a discussion and even not agree with it. But give it a **** rest, sometimes people like to try new strategies and can even make them work. I don't think OP was talking about Apoc 6 Glenwald strats either; which is a whole other can of worms. Chill out and play games to have fun and try new things. Stop trying to make every damn thing cookie cutter.

[sanguinae666]

Originally posted by Sykomyke:

Sanguine's thoughts on the game are "If you don't play exactly the same hyper efficient way every game (my way), you're not playing the game right".

This is highlighted by your snarky comment of "You want to get perfect combo of perks. GL"

Have you really red ALL my post in this discussion??
That phase just there means the whole opposite of what YOU are impliying, that getting the perfect combo of skills it's something reasonable to expect...

Originally posted by Sykomyke:

Every time you tried to come up with a counter argument to someone trying something out of the box you moved the goalpost.

First post: I got a fun game to work with organic armor and coag.
Sanguine: Nuh uh, that's not the hyper efficient way to play the game. Here's some napkin math ignoring other stats.
Rebuttal: But what about resistances, other perks that synergize with max hp? Even block?
Sanguine: Nuh uh, still not efficient.

I'm just giving facts... for starters, have you really read the description of organic armor??? It literaly converts armor into max life at 75% ratio... so if you don't take armor at all... what's the meaning into taking that perk???? Please, illuminate me!!
If by that you mean that taking some block and resistances makes it better... I already demonstrated in my second or third post in this discussion that not taking the perk is much better that taking it even taking the same ammount of block and resistance... since when it's bad pointing out that taking a perk is not only worse that other but plaintly detrimental in ALL cases.

Originally posted by Sykomyke:

Like seriously dude, it's ok to have a discussion and even not agree with it. But give it a **** rest, sometimes people like to try new strategies and can even make them work. I don't think OP was talking about Apoc 6 Glenwald strats either; which is a whole other can of worms. Chill out and play games to have fun and try new things. Stop trying to make every damn thing cookie cutter.

Like seriously dude, you just came to a discussion to flame me because I said and demonstrated that taking a perk that you like is a bad move in any case?

I have been trying the beta branch since the perk system got updated specifically to check if they really made a good job diversifying and we could try new builds to play completly different instead of doing the same every run, I really want the game to be fun instead of repeating the same ♥♥♥♥ again and again, I really want to feel that each hero is different but it should be useful at the same time, so making perks that are only detrimental doesn't help at all.

[Sykomyke]

"Like seriously dude, you just came to a discussion to flame me because I said and demonstrated that taking a perk that you like is a bad move in any case?"

In short, Yes. Because if you wanted to have an actual discussion and theorycraft new ideas, you wouldn't have acted as belligerently as you did towards DurableMirro4 and WadeStar.

You want people to treat you with courtesy and respect? How about you treat them with respect and not be yet another internet "akshully" assumptive jerk.

As for your comment about "detrimental persk". There are no "detrimental" perks. Each one many not *always* be good, but it has it's niche scenarios. Giving feedback on underperforming perks is fine, but your method of responding to others in this thread hasn't been with collaborative language. It's been with combative language. And that annoys the hell out of me.

To put it simply: Instead of coming up with a possible way to make the traits OP mentioned work, you instead put in a TON of time and effort in proving how they *DID NOT* work well, and how other trait combos out performed them.

OP (and others like myself) are not looking to have another person such as yourself tell us how certain traits aren't 'as good' as others. We are looking for inventive ways to play the game that are fun and unique. If you don't want to participate in that, that's fine, but as I mentioned earlier, try to approach the situation with "how can I make this work" instead of "How can I prove that this doesn't work well". It's all a matter of perspective.

Take that however you want to take it; for I won't be looking at this thread again because to be perfectly honest, I have better things to do with my time then argue with you about the efficacy of traits.