My most important suggestion to Sports Interactive (SI)

[Myll]

SI, you really need to take this to heart - your game doesn't produce a "live" match look and feel, for the technology and AI available as of this year, 2020. It simply doesn't.

This isn't just criticism, it should be a call to motivate you to actually do something about it. But more importantly --

- How often do you SI employees watch the Match in its FULL presentation, all 90+ minutes of match play, and not the abbreviated "Key Highlights" mode or such, but rather, you watch how the match actually plays out in front of your eyes?

You need to do that - a lot, and more than you are doing now.

I'm going to give you an odd Analogy but bear with me- in what is called "America's Test Kitchen" which is one of the most highly respected cooking related publications and shows in all of the world, that includes the publication of magazines such as "Cook's Illustrated" and "Cook's Country" - the core outfit at America's Test Kitchen does not publish a recipe until it has been baked at least 100 times and confirmed that they get it right.

So, how often do you "test cook" your recipe of code to see it played out? Do you watch 100 matches play out to see that everything is baked in correctly?

That's the kind of dedication to code-writing and AI perfection that we want from you. And it's what we/customers should expect, when we are paying near $50 US for a copy of the game.

As you should have noted, I'm not even listing the many things others have posted about here in Steam Forums or at other 3rd Party website Forums -- all over the internet, you can read varying frustrations at the look and feel and the actions on the field that seem out of line, illogical, or even technically/physically impossible. Rather - you should just get to watching the matches yourselves, to see what you're cooking.

[Kyle Brown]

I appreciate the feedback Myll but I can assure you that our match team do watch all aspects of the game regularly and with each new engine produced we wholeheartedly believe it's better than the last.
I can understand your criticisms, and if there are specific bugs you see during a match I'd encourage you to log them over in our community forums. The more eyes on the game and the more feedback we receive, the better. The match AI forums themselves are closed now for FM20, but with 21's release not far away it won't be long until 21 is released and we start onboarding feedback.
https://community.sigames.com/forum/726-football-manager-2020-bugs-forum/

[Myll]

Originally posted by Kyle Brown:

I appreciate the feedback Myll but I can assure you that our match team do watch all aspects of the game regularly and with each new engine produced we wholeheartedly believe it's better than the last.
I can understand your criticisms, and if there are specific bugs you see during a match I'd encourage you to log them over in our community forums. The more eyes on the game and the more feedback we receive, the better. The match AI forums themselves are closed now for FM20, but with 21's release not far away it won't be long until 21 is released and we start onboarding feedback.
https://community.sigames.com/forum/726-football-manager-2020-bugs-forum/

Kyle, given the importance of this game, which is arguably - the single-most important representation of global pro football in the entire world, I just can't see your response as indicating that your company is taking your responsibilities serious enough. You don't just have a responsibility to us the customers/gamers, you have a responsibility to the Football community and their leagues as well. I'm going to call a spade a spade here.

Bear in mind, I've advised Game Developers before in a formal manner, not just advice via Steam message postings, but my small contribution for SI can be viewed here:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1100600/discussions/0/2951503378110497175/

Separate from all those details/suggestions/criticisms in that thread, my statement in the Original Post really didn't result in any disclosure of actual full-match viewing by your coders/Developers. You stated that "...our match team do watch all aspects of the game regularly..." but that doesn't indicate that they watch "Full Matches" as I suggested you do. And I think this is a missing piece in your company's approach to coding/testing/coding phases, that your "testing" period between patches simply doesn't take enough time/effort to view full matches played out. I don't think observing "aspects" is good enough - we need to see better matches played out with more realism, not just tweaked aspects.

Have you seen the recurring Goalie errors described by me and many other players, where Goalies are kicking sideways out of bounds as a response to pressure, instead of kicking up-and-over down field? And illogical/unreal actions of Goalies in terms of putting the ball in hands vs keeping ball-at-feet during the course of a match? Watch a real match, watch how a goalie acts for real, in terms of when/why he picks up the ball, vice keeping it at his feet, and then watch FM20 for a full match, and you'll see the differences within the first 2-3 viewings.

There are Offsides calls that are not per the rules, they are simply "off" within the game for the mid-field calls (and no review for overlaid lines to critique them btw).

Have you seen that even if one pulls the entire team back as far as possible, both forward and defensive lines in Tactics to be as close to your own goal as possible, and put in full Defensive mode, that your AI still allows for players to shift forward entirely too far and get beat by 1-on-1 goal shots against the Goalie? Up by 2 goals against a superior team, I pull back the team into full-on Defensive mode and most roles changed to Defense, and players proceed to move forward so only a couple guys are back and 5x 1-on-1 in a 10 minute period occur with 2 of them resulting in goals against to tie the match. Logical? If we're the Manager, then let our management decisions result in actual conduct on the pitch, that is logical for the situation. Would my players in the real world recognize "Oh, we're up against a superior team, up by 2x goals, so it makes sense to stay back for the rest of the match now" -- final score, 3-2 against me, because no matter my settings, my guys always get burned by allowing players behind them (and again, this is in Tactics adjusted w/fully adjusted lines to pull back all the way, like Park the Bus on steroids, yet still getting burned w/balls behind that 4-across back line in front of goal). Now, a superior team may still beat me by that score, but not by burning my guys behind them, but by superior passing into the box, so I'm not saying that I should have won, but that the superior team's method of winning wasn't accurately portrayed.

I've seen purposeful tripping for yellow/red cards in unreal situations, such as -- just outside the box - when two players chase a crossing ball going out of bounds, no way they will reach the ball that is 20+ meters away as it's going out, and yet my player turns to his opponent and trips him purposely at the edge of the box, causing a direct/free kick for goal. Ever seen that occur in the real world? I haven't, ever, in all my years of watching real football. And that's again my point of watching full 90+ minute matches, to see what's "unreal" in the match, and Code It Out.

Players shutting down like they've fallen asleep on the field with the ball, staring at the ball between their feet for 5+ seconds, and an opposing player runs up and takes the ball away and dribbles down the pitch (sometimes for a break-away 1-on-1 against goal), even when "less dribbling" is selected so the player should have passed sooner than just staring at the ball between his feet like he is in a trance.

It is these and more illogical, near-insane actions on the pitch that are especially a concern. It's not Artificial Intelligence. It is Artificial Stupidity being presented in the FM series right now.

Ref. your Forum site -- I'm balking at visiting your Forum to state more. I'm a paid Steam gamer here, and we millions of Steam gamers (and your potential customers) would rather have our voice heard here. Consider how much we are "carrying the water" for you guys. We actually pay for the game, arguably a premium, in contrast to your free game offer for Epic players (yeah, I'm grinding that axe too...).

Some of us have been in games for 40+ years - we know what we're seeing is abnormal, we know how a good game presents itself. You have a great foundational purpose here - to enable all those interested in the sport to fully manage their club from boardroom to the coaching white board. I'm not questioning the data set of all the players, but I am questioning the way that data gets represented on the Pitch. It simply is unprofessional, for portraying a professional sport, and I hope that cuts a bit toward your Dev's and code-writers across SI.

You simply need to do better, and don't just expect us customers/gamers to always be there as your post-release Game Testers going forward. We want to see some polish here for the Match Engine, and the way a full 90+ minute Match plays out (and any abbreviated portrayals in Key Highlights as well).

Let me leave you with another Analogy (since the Cooking one didn't work, apparently) -- the best stereo equipment in the world, the amplifiers and speakers, have a single goal in mind -- to reproduce the Music as real as possible, to make one think the music artist is right there in the room with you, playing to you in person. You don't want to hear the amplifier or its possible static, or the flaws in the speaker or speaker cabinet - you want all flaws to be minimized or completely silent. You want the realism to come through.

That's what we players are asking/demanding here - we need to see more Realism play through, and not your code.

[GeirOve]

Great post Myll!

[Tony D]

What a great post, it is true what you are saying. In one season alone we have let 15 goals in when a player just as you say stands in a trance for 5+ seconds and lose the ball for the AI to run on and score. To many keepers in this game make saves that in real live they could not make either when they are in non league football. Match after match keepers are Clark Kent. Your team miss so many one on ones again in real live count how many they miss. I am not saying they dont miss of course they do but not when you get 10 or over in a match and you miss every one. Once again what a great post, hope 2021 will be a lot better, heres hoping.

[Myll]

Originally posted by plumbdeer123:

What a great post, it is true what you are saying. In one season alone we have let 15 goals in when a player just as you say stands in a trance for 5+ seconds and lose the ball for the AI to run on and score. To many keepers in this game make saves that in real live they could not make either when they are in non league football. Match after match keepers are Clark Kent. Your team miss so many one on ones again in real live count how many they miss. I am not saying they dont miss of course they do but not when you get 10 or over in a match and you miss every one. Once again what a great post, hope 2021 will be a lot better, heres hoping.

Thanks, although - it is yet to be determined how much the next iteration of this game will show improvements. Part of the problem is the repetitive/annual "update" to the game which probably puts Game Development resources in a tug of war for what can be done between versions, but there should be a once every 4 years "overhaul" of this game, in my opinion, and Sega/SI starts to schedule really big changes and puts code writers on efforts that are longer term improvements.

Just like a Pro Football coach would have to take his team/players into a room and have a White Board talk -- I think the SI team needs to get back in a room with a White Board and do more critical analysis inwardly, of what they as a team need to do better (and improve/polish this game series).