[SPOILERS] Anyone else loved the ending?

[Atarun]

WARNING MANY MANY SPOILERS AHEAD, DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED THE GAME.

You have been warned.

I keep seeing people complaining about the ending... Most often because they feel like none of what they did during the game mattered eventually. A few times because they didn't like the twist of the two music boxes. Sometimes because they just want a happy ending, period.

Personally, I think the ending is great for a few reasons:

- It's a Lovecraftian story and they never end well for the narrator/protagonist. Dooming Daniel from start to finish is exactly what H.P. Lovecraft himself would have done, had he written the story.

- The whole time, all the doomed people (everyone who attended the Cursed Concert, Argos LeGrant, Berenice Prestegard, Isaac Farber, Sebastian Husher and our main protagonist Daniel Noyer) are simply grasping at straws, throwing everything against the curse to see what sticks and absolutely nothing does. Locking up the most affected people, breaking every mirror, making a ton of sacrifices and erecting a gruesome statue in honor of the Presence, giving the music box back to its previous owner... none of those attempts even remotely seemed to do any good (note that Husher wrote in his letters that giving the box back to Farber had improved the situation at home, but given that Masha, his wife and his two kids were already dead by the time Daniel arrived, I think it was just wishful thinking on his part). I see no reason why bringing the music box(es) to There would work either. After all, the curse came to our world multiple times without the use of any music box and hearing the music just once clearly dooms you for good (remember the people who attended the Cursed Concert only heard the music once and look how that turned out for all of them). So, for me, even if there hadn't been a second music box or if Daniel had brought both boxes to There, he logically should have remained doomed.

- Ariadne drew Daniel when she was in the asylum and she knew his name. That makes more sense if he ends up a part of the Presence, especially given that when she meets him in real life for the first time, she asks him if he has listened to the box... so it's not like she's much of a clairvoyant. In my opinion, she knows his name because she lives with the Presence and probably knows the name of many of the people integrated in it.

- Daniel appears in Berenice's dreams as one among the doomed. Since every one else in that dream either commits suicide or gets sucked into the Presence, it makes sense for Daniel to go through the same... so, the only alternate ending that would make sense to me would be if there was a way to choose suicide for him instead and I doubt most people would enjoy such an ending, even as an option.

- I really like the final scene where you see Daniel trying to escape through a door that another character (it was Alexander in my playthroughs, don't know if it's always him or not) is fighting to keep closed... For me, that twist is awesome, especially when I replay through the game and everytime I get The Door QTE event, I'm thinking "omg, is Daniel trying to reach out here?"

Anyway, if you also liked the ending and thought it made a lot of sense, I'd like to know.

[AnotherGuy]

Perfect ending considering the themes, also there is evidence pointing toward there being a second box before the end, so all considering so it didn't just come out of nowhere. (picture of the elder daughter holding the box,etc...)

[Atarun]

Originally posted by AnotherGuy:

Perfect ending considering the themes, also there is evidence pointing toward there being a second box before the end, so all considering so it didn't just come out of nowhere. (picture of the elder daughter holding the box,etc...)

Oh my, I missed this picture! But even without, it made sense for Argos to make a music box for Elayne too, not just Ariadne.

Though, to be fair, I don't think it really matters how many music boxes were made. Listening to the Song just once is enough to doom you, after all.

[Protocol Games]

Since this is already full of spoilers, we can't help commenting a couple of things:

- When Husher says things improved after returning the box, he is just trying to make Färber feel better. He admits this (kind of) on his narration at the end of Episode 3.

- The effects of The Song at St. Cecilia's concert are as strong as ever, because monks are singing (after all, it's a song). Besides, singing The Song makes you the instrument, so it's way worse than just listening to it, thus the tentacles coming from monks' mouths.

- At early developing stages, we thought of adding a "suicide ending" option. Daniel was only playable after losing all other characters. At that point, game would ask you to choose between a last try with Daniel or giving up. Should you give up... well... Daniel would do so, too.

Anyway, we're glad that you liked the ending.

[Atarun]

Originally posted by Protocol Games:

- When Husher says things improved after returning the box, he is just trying to make Färber feel better. He admits this (kind of) on his narration at the end of Episode 3.

Right. He does admit to having told Farber that essentially for him to ease his wait... but he also says he hopes his family will live long enough for him to find a solution, so it seems to me he doesn't realize how bad the curse already got. Maybe I'm reading way too much into it.

Originally posted by Protocol Games:

- The effects of The Song at St. Cecilia's concert are as strong as ever, because monks are singing (after all, it's a song). Besides, singing The Song makes you the instrument, so it's way worse than just listening to it, thus the tentacles coming from monks' mouths.

Good timing! I've just reached Episode 4 on my H.P. Lovecraft playthrough, I'll make sure to pay attention to monks' mouths this time.
And it makes a lot of sense that playing or singing the song yourself would curse you a lot deeper and a lot quicker than just hearing it once, but since not a single soul survived attending the Cursed Concert (at least, as far as anyone knows), I still think that hearing the song once is enough for the Presence to claim you and that nothing Daniel could have done would have saved him.

Originally posted by Protocol Games:

- At early developing stages, we thought of adding a "suicide ending" option. Daniel was only playable after losing all other characters. At that point, game would ask you to choose between a last try with Daniel or giving up. Should you give up... well... Daniel would do so, too.

Well, that would have been in keeping with Lovecraftian novellas for sure (I can think of a few narrators who opted for death rather than whatever worse their fate had in store)... but I'm not sure how that ending would have made me feel, honestly.

Originally posted by Protocol Games:

Anyway, we're glad that you liked the ending.

And I'm super glad you took the time to read my post and add some more precious info! I love you devs!

[Colby]

Originally posted by Atarun:

WARNING MANY MANY SPOILERS AHEAD, DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED THE GAME.

You have been warned.

I keep seeing people complaining about the ending... Most often because they feel like none of what they did during the game mattered eventually. A few times because they didn't like the twist of the two music boxes. Sometimes because they just want a happy ending, period.

Personally, I think the ending is great for a few reasons:

- It's a Lovecraftian story and they never end well for the narrator/protagonist. Dooming Daniel from start to finish is exactly what H.P. Lovecraft himself would have done, had he written the story.

- The whole time, all the doomed people (everyone who attended the Cursed Concert, Argos LeGrant, Berenice Prestegard, Isaac Farber, Sebastian Husher and our main protagonist Daniel Noyer) are simply grasping at straws, throwing everything against the curse to see what sticks and absolutely nothing does. Locking up the most affected people, breaking every mirror, making a ton of sacrifices and erecting a gruesome statue in honor of the Presence, giving the music box back to its previous owner... none of those attempts even remotely seemed to do any good (note that Husher wrote in his letters that giving the box back to Farber had improved the situation at home, but given that Masha, his wife and his two kids were already dead by the time Daniel arrived, I think it was just wishful thinking on his part). I see no reason why bringing the music box(es) to There would work either. After all, the curse came to our world multiple times without the use of any music box and hearing the music just once clearly dooms you for good (remember the people who attended the Cursed Concert only heard the music once and look how that turned out for all of them). So, for me, even if there hadn't been a second music box or if Daniel had brought both boxes to There, he logically should have remained doomed.

- Ariadne drew Daniel when she was in the asylum and she knew his name. That makes more sense if he ends up a part of the Presence, especially given that when she meets him in real life for the first time, she asks him if he has listened to the box... so it's not like she's much of a clairvoyant. In my opinion, she knows his name because she lives with the Presence and probably knows the name of many of the people integrated in it.

- Daniel appears in Berenice's dreams as one among the doomed. Since every one else in that dream either commits suicide or gets sucked into the Presence, it makes sense for Daniel to go through the same... so, the only alternate ending that would make sense to me would be if there was a way to choose suicide for him instead and I doubt most people would enjoy such an ending, even as an option.

- I really like the final scene where you see Daniel trying to escape through a door that another character (it was Alexander in my playthroughs, don't know if it's always him or not) is fighting to keep closed... For me, that twist is awesome, especially when I replay through the game and everytime I get The Door QTE event, I'm thinking "omg, is Daniel trying to reach out here?"

Anyway, if you also liked the ending and thought it made a lot of sense, I'd like to know.

I figured Daniel and the rest were doomed right from the start. That is just how these stories go. But I wanted to know more about the presence and the song its goal etc. The story felt barebones. I also wanted alternate endings. They don't have to be good endings but I wanted some ability to change Daniels fate.

[Atarun]

Originally posted by Colby:

I figured Daniel and the rest were doomed right from the start. That is just how these stories go. But I wanted to know more about the presence and the song its goal etc. The story felt barebones. I also wanted alternate endings. They don't have to be good endings but I wanted some ability to change Daniels fate.

If you read every document the game provides and pay attention to details, you'll find that the game tells you a LOT about The Presence. It mostly remains in a parallel dimension (There), hates light, has been in contact with human beings for at least tens of thousands of years and once you hear its Song, it will stalk you to death (or worse).

Talking about "its goals" makes little sense to me... It's an entity comparable to Nyarlathotep (some representations of old Nyarly look a lot like The Presence, in fact), a kind of Outer God, unaffected by time and space (as it proves time and time again that it can warp both). It wouldn't make much sense for such a being to have a mundane goal like "conquering Earth" or "destroying mankind". Pretty much the only impulse we see it indulge is that of integrating beings who listened to the Song into its ever growing mass.

As for alternate endings... They're nice to have, but plenty of games don't have any... and here, as I mentioned, the only alternative I think makes any sense would be for Daniel to commit suicide. Would you have preferred to have that option in-game? (This isn't sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely curious)

EDIT: Thinking back on it, I think there could be a third way for Daniel to end his journey. If his mind shattered as completely as Ariadne's, to the point where he wouldn't mind The Presence at all, then maybe he could go on living as a mad recluse... but then, I wonder what will happen to Ariadne when she dies of old age. Will The Presence just let her go, or claim her at last?

[pythonfp]

Glad to read someone who took the time to analyze the various hints during the game.
For the final scene, you are in fact back in time to the first "the door" event in the dining room (see the painting "a way out" in ariadne's estate in the finale, check the date). The person keeping the door closed is in fact the one you started the first chapter with (in my playthrough it was Alina).

[Atarun]

Originally posted by pythonfp:

Glad to read someone who took the time to analyze the various hints during the game.
For the final scene, you are in fact back in time to the first "the door" event in the dining room (see the painting "a way out" in ariadne's estate in the finale, check the date). The person keeping the door closed is in fact the one you started the first chapter with (in my playthrough it was Alina).

Thank you! That's what I was thinking (that the character you see had to depend on which characters you played with during the first chapter). Makes a lot of sense. Too bad I haven't yet found Ariadne's painting called "A Way Out" (I'll try to find them all on my H.P. Lovecraft playthrough).

[pythonfp]

The painting is easy to find, it is in the entry hall of Ariadne's estate to your (Daniel's) left when you enter. The final nail to the coffin, i might say...

[Atarun]

Originally posted by pythonfp:

The painting is easy to find, it is in the entry hall of Ariadne's estate to your (Daniel's) left when you enter. The final nail to the coffin, i might say...

Whoops, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about Ariadne's drawings, the collectibles in Episode 5. But that's a painting in the Finale?

[pythonfp]

Yes ! Finale -> Look for a peculiar painting ;)

[Atarun]

Originally posted by pythonfp:

Yes ! Finale -> Look for a peculiar painting ;)

Sure will. Thanks a lot! :)

[pythonfp]

Originally posted by Atarun:

Thinking back on it, I think there could be a third way for Daniel to end his journey. If his mind shattered as completely as Ariadne's, to the point where he wouldn't mind The Presence at all, then maybe he could go on living as a mad recluse... but then, I wonder what will happen to Ariadne when she dies of old age. Will The Presence just let her go, or claim her at last?

To my mind, the presence is not absolutely trying to break the minds of the people it absorbed, it locks them in an eternal loop to torment them (see dream puzzles in the finale) BUT its victims are oblivious to the passage of time because the presence can warp time itself. The worst part is when they manifest in the real world, they must not perceive what's going on like the characters we play. For example with "the silence" event, you see a scary monster, but from the victim point of view, he/her must be like in a dark room and they are hearing someone nearby. When they are seeking you, their intention is not to harm you, but to find help... And it must be the same for any events with wraiths trying to grab you... That's what illustrates the final scene of the game.
I imagine the presence adds minds to its collection like you pin bugs.
If the victims becomes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy, they are like crushed bugs, so he "collects" them when they are still in somewhat mint condition in case they are reluctant to commit suicide.

Ariadne is a special case, in chapter five you find a letter from an executive of the mental hospital explaining since Ariadne was an infant, her mind was a "blank canvas" and grew like a twisted tree : it bends but it doesn't break.
I think the presence will collect her when she dies of old age since she is a medium of its will, BUT she might not be bound by the shackles of fear and anxiety like the other victims.
Let's imagine there is a sequel, she might become an odd apathetic spirit giving you clues if you try to interact with her.

[Atarun]

Originally posted by pythonfp:

To my mind, the presence is not absolutely trying to break the minds of the people it absorbed, it locks them in an eternal loop to torment them (see dream puzzles in the finale) BUT its victims are oblivious to the passage of time because the presence can warp time itself. The worst part is when they manifest in the real world, they must not perceive what's going on like the characters we play. For example with "the silence" event, you see a scary monster, but from the victim point of view, he/her must be like in a dark room and they are hearing someone nearby. When they are seeking you, their intention is not to harm you, but to find help... And it must be the same for any events with wraiths trying to grab you... That's what illustrates the final scene of the game.
I imagine the presence adds minds to its collection like you pin bugs.
If the victims becomes ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy, they are like crushed bugs, so he "collects" them when they are still in somewhat mint condition in case they are reluctant to commit suicide.

Ariadne is a special case, in chapter five you find a letter from an executive of the mental hospital explaining since Ariadne was an infant, her mind was a "blank canvas" and grew like a twisted tree : it bends but it doesn't break.
I think the presence will collect her when she dies of old age since she is a medium of its will, BUT she might not be bound by the shackles of fear and anxiety like the other victims.
Let's imagine there is a sequel, she might become an odd apathetic spirit giving you clues if you try to interact with her.

I agree 100%. It doesn't seem to me that any of the manifestations in this game are trying to kill you. Even René's ghost who shoots you probably thinks he is shooting a monster. Much like the friendly ghosts who hand you objects (including Husher's daughter, notably), it seems the various wraiths are stuck in simple patterns and probably not aware that they are no longer alive.

And that's why I'm thinking now that Daniel's curse could have played out differently: given that we see him go into the other dimensions THREE TIMES (Prologue, Episode 4, Finale) and getting out fairly unscathed, he could have become sufficiently atuned to The Presence to become a "twisted tree" like Ariadne. Of course, I'm talking alternate history here, since in the story, he considers the possibility and outright rejects it.

I find the idea of interacting with a peaceful ghost Ariadne in a sequel interesting. Some insight into her life between her time in the asylum and her meeting with Daniel would be awesome as well. How did she lead most of her life, despite being crazy, haunted and the owner of two cursed music boxes?

I also wonder why exactly she chose to sell her furniture with the music box inside the wardrobe... I mean, if financial troubles are the motivation, surely she should have run into money problems much earlier in life? Was the LeGrant-Amsberg fortune just enough for her to hold on until old age but not longer? Weird, right?

It's of course possible that she used the pretense of selling her furniture precisely to send the music box to its next fated owner, Isaac Farber. But then, did she purposely avoid making anybody listen to the box in the intervening years between her time at the asylum (where a LOT of patients and staff got cursed) and selling the wardrobe some 80 years later?

Anyway, if a sequel is announced, it's instant preorder for me. :)

[pythonfp]

Maybe not that weird, she has been treated in a mental hospital and i would suspect her inheritance was used to pay the bill and she is completely out of her gourd so i doubt she has ever worked. An orphan but a rich one. Lucky her !

When the mental hospital has closed, Ariadne's box must have been sent back to the LeGrant-Amsberg estate. Since Ariadne had Elayne's box, the other one was collecting dust in the wardrobe until the events of the game. I wouldn't be surprised since Ariadne is pretty out of touch about mundane commodities that she completely forgot where she put her box when she sold part of her furnitures... An honest "accident".