All buff spells requiring concentration makes most of them useless

[Asbjørn Olsen]

I'm really surprised by how many spells that require concentration. The problem is it makes the directly compete, since you can only use one of them. That means the lesser spells will never be cast and are useless. If some of the worse buff spells didn't require concentration, I would allowed them to be stacked together with the better spells, giving them a function. Right now, most of the spell-list is useless.

[wizard1200]

I think that the 5e mechanic is better than the 3.x mechanic, because the difference between a buffed and a non-buffed party was huge, but you are right, that the 5e mechanic is too simple ... again. Our table top group uses the following variant: You can maintain (caster level / 2 (round up)) spell levels. A level 5 wizard could for example maintain one level 3 spell or one level 2 spell and one level 1 spell.

[DiceWrangler]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Our table top group uses the following variant: You can maintain (caster level / 2 (round up)) spell levels.

I like that House Rule and plan to try it in my next 5e campaign.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

I think that the 5e mechanic is better than the 3.x mechanic, because the difference between a buffed and a non-buffed party was huge, but you are right, that the 5e mechanic is too simple ... again. Our table top group uses the following variant: You can maintain (caster level / 2 (round up)) spell levels. A level 5 wizard could for example maintain one level 3 spell or one level 2 spell and one level 1 spell.

That just sounds busted at later levels. There is a reason you can only hold one concentration spell.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

That just sounds busted at later levels. There is a reason you can only hold one concentration spell.

I do not think so, because you need for example level 17 to maintain three 'haste' spells (17 / 2 = 8.5 rounded up to 9 : 3 (spell level of haste) = 3).

[Landomart]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Originally posted by Alealexi:

That just sounds busted at later levels. There is a reason you can only hold one concentration spell.

I do not think so, because you need for example level 17 to maintain three 'haste' spells (17 / 2 = 8.5 rounded up to 9 : 3 (spell level of haste) = 3).

It's not OP because of how many people you can cast the spell on. It's OP because of how powerful spells are when combined together. Greater Invisibility and Fly is very powerful and you only need level 14 to start doing that.
ignoring how OP high level spells are when combined together, even low level stuff becomes a joke with that house rule. Shield of Faith and Protection from Good and Evil makes an extremely powerful combo and you only need level 4 to start pulling that off. Concentration means powerful combos need teamwork. Ignore that and suddenly a single spell caster brings extremely power combos to the group solo. One of the main reasons concentration was added, was to stop one player from having massive impact on the game.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Landomart:

It's not OP because of how many people you can cast the spell on. It's OP because of how powerful spells are when combined together. Greater Invisibility and Fly is very powerful and you only need level 14 to start doing that.
ignoring how OP high level spells are when combined together, even low level stuff becomes a joke with that house rule. Shield of Faith and Protection from Good and Evil makes an extremely powerful combo and you only need level 4 to start pulling that off. Concentration means powerful combos need teamwork. Ignore that and suddenly a single spell caster brings extremely power combos to the group solo. One of the main reasons concentration was added, was to stop one player from having massive impact on the game.

I think that the number of people IS important, because casting Greater Invisibility and Fly or Shield of Faith and Protection from Good and Evil protects only one party member while the other party members are vulnerable.

[Landomart]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Originally posted by Landomart:

It's not OP because of how many people you can cast the spell on. It's OP because of how powerful spells are when combined together. Greater Invisibility and Fly is very powerful and you only need level 14 to start doing that.
ignoring how OP high level spells are when combined together, even low level stuff becomes a joke with that house rule. Shield of Faith and Protection from Good and Evil makes an extremely powerful combo and you only need level 4 to start pulling that off. Concentration means powerful combos need teamwork. Ignore that and suddenly a single spell caster brings extremely power combos to the group solo. One of the main reasons concentration was added, was to stop one player from having massive impact on the game.

I think that the number of people IS important, because casting Greater Invisibility and Fly or Shield of Faith and Protection from Good and Evil protects only one party member while the other party members are vulnerable.

The other party members don't have to be involved, because you don't need to stay in range for concentration. You cast Haste and Greater Invisibility on a sharpshooter, and they'll decimate encounters on their own.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Landomart:

The other party members don't have to be involved, because you don't need to stay in range for concentration. You cast Haste and Greater Invisibility on a sharpshooter, and they'll decimate encounters on their own.

Not really, because Haste and Greater Invisibility have a duration of 10 turns and a level 13 character will probably need more than 10 turns to kill a cr 13 monster.

[Landomart]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Originally posted by Landomart:

The other party members don't have to be involved, because you don't need to stay in range for concentration. You cast Haste and Greater Invisibility on a sharpshooter, and they'll decimate encounters on their own.

Not really, because Haste and Greater Invisibility have a duration of 10 turns and a level 13 character will probably need more than 10 turns to kill a cr 13 monster.

CR 13 monsters have 180ish hp. You're telling me you don't think a level 13 character can do an average of 18 points of damage per round? One of my player's had a fighter build that could do over 200 in a single round by level 15.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Landomart:

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Not really, because Haste and Greater Invisibility have a duration of 10 turns and a level 13 character will probably need more than 10 turns to kill a cr 13 monster.

CR 13 monsters have 180ish hp. You're telling me you don't think a level 13 character can do an average of 18 points of damage per round? One of my player's had a fighter build that could do over 200 in a single round by level 15.

This isn't hard to do at level 8. I've seen a fighter one round a buffed beholder with a hand crossbow. With a +11 to hit it is not hard to do with crossbow expertise + sharpshooter + advantage + power surge + superiority dice. He had a +1 hand crossbow that did an extra d6 fire damage.

[Landomart]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Originally posted by Landomart:

CR 13 monsters have 180ish hp. You're telling me you don't think a level 13 character can do an average of 18 points of damage per round? One of my player's had a fighter build that could do over 200 in a single round by level 15.

This isn't hard to do at level 8. I've seen a fighter one round a buffed beholder with a hand crossbow. With a +11 to hit it is not hard to do.

I wasn't trying to say it was impressive. I was just pointing out that it's very odd to imply a level 13 character couldn't deal 180 points of damage in 10 rounds, when there are plenty of builds that can do way more than 180 in a single round.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Landomart:

Originally posted by Alealexi:

This isn't hard to do at level 8. I've seen a fighter one round a buffed beholder with a hand crossbow. With a +11 to hit it is not hard to do.

I wasn't trying to say it was impressive. I was just pointing out that it's very odd to imply a level 13 character couldn't deal 180 points of damage in 10 rounds, when there are plenty of builds that can do way more than 180 in a single round.

I was trying to help you out to prove your point. It is not hard to do over 200 in 1 round even at level 8. Wizard seems to not know how many builds can do this as he thought no character can do this.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Wizard seems to not know how many builds can do this as he thought no character can do this.

Yep, how can you inflict 180+ points of damage in a single turn in D&D 5e?

[Landomart]

Originally posted by wizard1200:

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Wizard seems to not know how many builds can do this as he thought no character can do this.

Yep, how can you inflict 180+ points of damage in a single turn in D&D 5e?

My player was a 4 Assassin / 11 Battle Master. During surprise, if he got Assassinate(wasn't hard for him with +10 initiative), he could deal 10d10 + 12d8 + 4d6 + 42 in a single round. Which averages to about 178. Lucky rolls on his damage dice let him get over 200, which happened pretty often.

So ignoring the very real possibility of downing a CR13 monster in one round. How is it that you / your players haven't been able to average 18 points of damage during a single round at level 13? I mean, a plain fighter just swinging their weapon at level 13 with no fighting style averages 21 damage.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Landomart:

My player was a 4 Assassin / 11 Battle Master. During surprise, if he got Assassinate(wasn't hard for him with +10 initiative), he could deal 10d10 + 12d8 + 4d6 + 42 in a single round. Which averages to about 178. Lucky rolls on his damage dice let him get over 200, which happened pretty often.

So ignoring the very real possibility of downing a CR13 monster in one round. How is it that you / your players haven't been able to average 18 points of damage during a single round at level 13? I mean, a plain fighter just swinging their weapon at level 13 with no fighting style averages 21 damage.

Wow, that is impressive. I thought that something like this would be possible only in D&D 3.x

The problem was not the raw damage, but the abilities of some monsters to counter this damage. For example a vampire regenerates 20 hp per turn, could use mist form to move out of reach (behind a heavy door which needs to be opened or destroyed) or could use charm to remove the threat of a player character.