Point Buy vs. Rolling Stats

[Acadiantri]

With point buy, my characters will likely have 16s in their two main stat and a 14 in a third. With repeated rolling, I can easily and have those stats be two 18s and a 16 (or I can just set all my stats to 20, yes I know). My questions how much stronger is a party with characters with 18/18/16 in their three main stats than a party with characters with 16/16/14? +1 on to hit and damage or AC looks 5% better, but my guess is that the rolled party will be 10-20% stronger in practice from hitting more often, doing more damage, getting hit less often, and having more hps combined. Thoughts?

[bbii]

Originally posted by Absinth Minded:

That brings me to the endless re roll and maxing out every stat mindset. The standard game mechanic is either using the normal point buy or roll once for random stats. As soon as you use or abuse a mechanic that trivializes the game especially if goes against the intended design of the designers you ARE cheating.

So what you are saying is that if you created a character is Solastra and you iuse the die roll that is first given to you. You never hit reroll. Since the game automatically gives you a roll you accept it.
If I use unlimited point buy to recreate a character I rolled fairly for table top I am cheating? No, before you say it, it isn't all 18's (13,18,14,17,12,12 with the +1 in all stats for a human)

[Kasa]

@Grumpy Old Dude

No offense dude, but you know an average joes stat is 10 ya?
With 4d6d1 you are "average" roll is gonna be 12 - 13 ya?

with point buy:
"This method of determining ability scores enables you to create a set of three high numbers and three low ones (15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8), a set of numbers that are above average and nearly equal (13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12), or any set of numbers between those extremes."

Statistically point buy will get you similar stats to what you would most likely roll. Same for elite array.
As I mentioned I prefer elite array or point buy since it makes the playing field even for my players, point buy being my absolute preferred because it still lets the players fully customize their characters to how they want to play.

If there was a downside to pointbuy it is that they don't let you get a 18 or lower your stat below 8, I understand why as to not munchkin TOO much, but it's still annoying.

As for the sub debate in this thread about cheating I personally believe you cannot cheat in a single player game. It's single player, there is nothing to cheat, you can CHEAPEN the experience but you can't really CHEAT since it's only you and the game.

[Ghost]

I normally roll 50 to 70 times per character but that's just me

[Kasa]

A neat home rule roll I played with recently had you roll 18d6, you then chose which dice to assign to which stat (no more then 3) and were not allowed to use the same dice twice, by that I mean if you had rolled four 6's and you uses 3 of them on your strength score you only had one 6 left to use on a different stat.

It's effectively 3d6 on each stat but allowing the player to choose which dice to use on which stat gave a lot of customization option.

[Grumpy Old Dude]

Originally posted by Kasa:

@Grumpy Old Dude

No offense dude, but you know an average joes stat is 10 ya?
With 4d6d1 you are "average" roll is gonna be 12 - 13 ya?

with point buy:
"This method of determining ability scores enables you to create a set of three high numbers and three low ones (15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8), a set of numbers that are above average and nearly equal (13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12), or any set of numbers between those extremes."

Statistically point buy will get you similar stats to what you would most likely roll. Same for elite array.
As I mentioned I prefer elite array or point buy since it makes the playing field even for my players, point buy being my absolute preferred because it still lets the players fully customize their characters to how they want to play.

If there was a downside to pointbuy it is that they don't let you get a 18 or lower your stat below 8, I understand why as to not munchkin TOO much, but it's still annoying.

As for the sub debate in this thread about cheating I personally believe you cannot cheat in a single player game. It's single player, there is nothing to cheat, you can CHEAPEN the experience but you can't really CHEAT since it's only you and the game.

yes, technically an avg roll from 3D6 is 10.5. Allow for any 'normal' variance and you get 9-13. So if the 6 stats sum to approx 60 thru 75, thats an avg character. 2 17s, 2 12s and 2 8s, is 74...an avg character....maybe bigger than most, but also dumber than most or uglier or something...but avg overall.

When the autoroller came out for BG, I set it to a sum of 95. Then 'd go do whatever it was I had to do, sleep all night, read a book, go to work, whatever. 8 hrs later, I'd have a character where the 6 stats summed to 95 or better. Now before the autoroller, I'd roll and roll and roll until they summed 90 or better. I KNOW, I was not alone in having spent 6 hours rolling characters.

You want to recall a game that took for bloody freakin ever to generate your party? Wizardry VI, Bane of the Cosmic Forge. That game is here on STEAM. Give it a whirl.

Originally posted by Ghost:

I normally roll 50 to 70 times per character but that's just me :lunar2020playfuldog:

THIS!!!!!!

[DiceWrangler]

Hard to believe that this argument is still ongoing. Anyway, for those that claim Point Buy creates an "Average Joe" they should realize that an Average Joe has a 10 in all ability scores. If you created a Human with all 10s that would cost 12 points (the base score is 8) but the standard is 27 points so a PC created with 15 points more than an Average Joe is, obviously, not an Average Joe.

[Kasa]

Originally posted by DiceWrangler:

Hard to believe that this argument is still ongoing. Anyway, for those that claim Point Buy creates an "Average Joe" they should realize that an Average Joe has a 10 in all ability scores. If you created a Human with all 10s that would cost 12 points (the base score is 8) but the standard is 27 points so a PC created with 17 points more than an Average Joe is, obviously, not an Average Joe.

Acadiantri accidentally (or on purpose) set a land mine, and a lot of us don't have much to do till 1.0 so we are having internet arguments like the giant nerds we are with various levels of fun and hurt feelings.

So typical day on the internet XD

[Grumpy Old Dude]

Originally posted by DiceWrangler:

Hard to believe that this argument is still ongoing. Anyway, for those that claim Point Buy creates an "Average Joe" they should realize that an Average Joe has a 10 in all ability scores. If you created a Human with all 10s that would cost 12 points (the base score is 8) but the standard is 27 points so a PC created with 15 points more than an Average Joe is, obviously, not an Average Joe.

no, 10 is not the hard avg. 10.5 is. Which means with variance, 9-12. 3D6, will total 9,10,11,or 12 with 104 of 218 possible combos. Read my post 2 above yours. Essentially the 6 stats when summed, if that total is 60-75...its an avg character. The kind that die on the way out of town on their 1st adventure,, so the player can roll a real character to play.

[Cartesian Duelist]

Originally posted by Kasa:

A neat home rule roll I played with recently had you roll 18d6, you then chose which dice to assign to which stat (no more then 3) and were not allowed to use the same dice twice, by that I mean if you had rolled four 6's and you uses 3 of them on your strength score you only had one 6 left to use on a different stat.

It's effectively 3d6 on each stat but allowing the player to choose which dice to use on which stat gave a lot of customization option.

My dad ran a couple campaigns where we used this rule to create characters. I believe we were also allowed to roll 3-4 1s but had to accept the second roll. It allowed us to build the characters we wanted to play without anyone being OP. In the group I play with now, we get one 18 then roll 3d6 8 times and keep the best 5 then arrange as desired. This also results in good characters that aren't too good.

[Acadiantri]

@Kasa Totally accidentally and so so sorry.
Did some calculations because no one seemed to want to answer the question I asked. (Someone did make a good point on the opportunity cost. Much more likely to take follow up strike at level 4 than a +2 strength with an 18 or 20 strength than with a 16 strength. I'll probably take it either way, but still.)
So Fighter with 18 strength at levels 1-4 has +6 to hit (+2 proficiency, +4 strength). Attacking a monster with AC 16, he has a 55% chance to hit and with a 1d8 weapon will average 8.5 pts of damage (4.5+4).
Compare that to a 16 strength fighter, 50% chance to hit for average of 7.5 pts of damage.
Taken together, this means that the 18 strength fighter will average roughly 25% more damage each round than the 16 strength fighter.
With an 18 rather than 16 con, at first level, the 18 con fighter will have 14 hp vs. 13 hp for the 16 con fighter. Thus, the 18 con fighter can take 7.7 percent more damage. (This percentage increases as the fighter levels up.)
Assuming heavy armor, so only strength and con matter, that's a total of dealing 34.25 percent more damage at first level before the 18 str/18 con fighter reaches 0 hp on average compared to the 16/16 fighter.
The percentage is somewhat higher for a dex based damage dealer such as a ranger because dex also raises AC and reduces the chance of being hit. If an 18 dex ranger is hit 10% less often than a 16 dex ranger on average, then the 18 dex/18 con ranger will deal 47.7 percent more damage before reaching 0 hp compared to the 16/16 ranger. If TWF, the 18/18 ranger will deal 27 percent more damage per round and with increased hps and AC will deal 50.5 percent more damage on average before reaching 0 hp than the 16/16 ranger. (That's without hunter's mark or colossus slayer. As with the rogue's sneak attack, the higher dex makes it more likely to hit and hence get that damage, but the higher dex modifier doesn't change the damage either does directly.)
It's more complicated for a rogue because the dex modifier applies to weapon damage but not sneak attack damage, though it makes hitting more likely for both types of damage.
For clerics and mages, a high wisdom or intelligence matters less, though higher dex and con increases survivability.
As characters go up in levels, the difference may matter less as magic weapons, poison on weapons, magic armor, reduce the relative advantage from an extra couple points of strength, dex or con. And of course, if the game continues to hand-out stat items like candy, then it simply becomes a question of the opportunity cost of attuning some other magic item.

As far as the rest goes, play as you like. I won't judge.

[Kasa]

@Acadiantri
XD No worries it kills time!

That said, dex is vastly better then str in 5e since dex does indeed increase damage as well as initiative and AC as well as reflex saves.

Bows add dex to damage as foes a well as a lot of weapons, a sylvan elf fighter with studded leather armor and a shield with 20 dex will have:
12 Base + 5 dex + 2 shield for 19 AC

Attacking a AC 16 monster would mean a 60% chance to hit damage using a Rapier would be:
4.5 + 5 = 9.5

Average init would be:
10.5 + 5 = (15.5) 15 - 16

And reflex would be a solid +5 at level 1, not to mention no stealth penalty and another solid +5 to stealth checks.

[bobo.94]

here I see only a group of crying babyes trying to justify an indiscriminate reroll of the stats in order to get at least an 18 (preferably two or more) when THE GAME ITSELF is balanced around not having more than 17 in one attribute before the fourth level. Furthermore, even admitting some rerolls, statistically it will be impossible to randomly get higher scores than the point buy system before having rerolled TONS of times. Nowdays the world is just full of kids who just want to win and try to justify a mechanic clearly not foreseen by the rules but above all that goes against the basic balance of the game (maximum natural bonus of +5 up to 4th level). Internet is a beautiful place :)

[Absinth Minded]

Originally posted by bbii:

So what you are saying is that if you created a character is Solastra and you iuse the die roll that is first given to you. You never hit reroll. Since the game automatically gives you a roll you accept it.
If I use unlimited point buy to recreate a character I rolled fairly for table top I am cheating? No, before you say it, it isn't all 18's (13,18,14,17,12,12 with the +1 in all stats for a human)

If you used your dice and then create a Solasta character based on that, that's fine. If you rolled and rolled and rolled till you get a roll that gives you stats that finally pleases you because they are way above what the game expects you to have.
Rolled stats are there to give you an unique character that may give you way above but also way under average ability scores. You have to realize that we have people here that roll till they have a stat line where the average ability score is 16.
There is virtually no difference between using unlimited point buy to give you max stats or just using weighted die irl.

And sure it's a single player game but cheating is cheating no matter the context. To cheat in a single player game is to cheapen your own experience. Same with give all weapons in DOOM or the cobra car in Age of Empires 2.

[paolo.bera]

Originally posted by Grumpy Old Dude:

then you are insane...utterly, totally, and completely, devoid of common sense.

And if you insist on point buy, none of the several hundred people I have played DnD with over the past 40 years, would have anything to do with your game. Point buy is great, if you want a joe avg character. But then, joe avg is not an adventurer is he? Joe Avg, works at daddy's livery, or plows dads fields.

No, a player...the person PLAYING THE CHARACTER, can roll until they get whatever the hell they want to play.

Point buy at 27 point is more than capable for making very good character, you start usually with a 17 in you main characteristic and a 15-16 in your secondary, not bad.
It is so "not bad" that some master don't like it and make player roll so they can have more "normal"point.
Even the 4d6 sistem without the lowest result sometime isn't a match for the point buy.

[bbii]

Originally posted by Absinth Minded:

And sure it's a single player game but cheating is cheating no matter the context. To cheat in a single player game is to cheapen your own experience. Same with give all weapons in DOOM or the cobra car in Age of Empires 2.

Here is the problem I have with calling it cheating.
If before I save the character I decide to go back to the start and rebuild the character am I cheating?
If after I save, since you can't edit the character, I delete the character because I didn't like the hair color after all am I cheating?
There is a difference between using an exploit or bug to do something and using a tool they give you in character creation to build your character. There are other games that give you the option to reroll but limit it. If you use it are you cheating?
Again if you use dice roll as an option it gives you a roll automatically. How many people playing the game do you think take that roll? Did you? Is everyone cheating?