Invisibility is the most useful spell in the game.

[jakinbandw]

So I've seen a few guides be pretty down on invisibility, and I'd like to go hard against that narrative.

First, you'll want to have 2 characters that can cast invisibility. You can have up to 6 characters in your party, and so you'll want to be able to cover all of them with a 4th level upcast.

Now two third level upcasts, or two forth level upcasts are fairly expensive, so what do you get for this?

In a word? Complete safety. If you entire party is invisible, you can freely scout a level without fear. You can enter conversations without worry. You'll look weird during them, but it's incredibly amusing to be ambushed, only for combat not to start because no one can see your characters. It will give you a chance to set up ambushes in forced encounters.

Even with the few foes that can see invisibility, all their attacks still suffer disadvantage.

And of course, this is before we get into the insanity that is Spirit Guardians cheese.

[LJ-the-brave]

Just take one or two sorcerers, cast greater invisibility with twinned metamagic and better cast it on a rogue(s) for easy sneak attack every time.

[Dallas S]

That's because invisibility doesn't work like it does in tabletop.

In solasta it makes you unable to know where the enemy is, which invisibility in tabletop does not (you have to hide to do that, and you're treated as heavily obscured when you hide).
It also makes you unable to Target the invisible character, which is again not how it works in tabletop. In tabletop you just get disadvantage on attacking them.

So guides are probably using tabletop rules.

Of course greater invisibility is better, and with two sorcerers you can do it to a whole party.

[jakinbandw]

Originally posted by LJ-the-brave:

Just take one or two sorcerers, cast greater invisibility with twinned metamagic and better cast it on a rogue(s) for easy sneak attack every time.

I'll disagree here. Specifically because of how short greater invisibility lasts. 1 minute isn't enough to do any real scouting, and unless you know for sure that an encounter is coming (which is kinda like reading a module before playing it), it isn't really a viable option. Now there is an interesting argument to have two casters holding up invisibility on the group while a sorcerer has see invisibility up on themselves, and then when combat starts, they cast greater invisibility on themselves and another party member. I could see this working just fine. That said, it still requires invisibility to pull off.

Originally posted by Dallas S:

That's because invisibility doesn't work like it does in tabletop.

In solasta it makes you unable to know where the enemy is, which invisibility in tabletop does not (you have to hide to do that, and you're treated as heavily obscured when you hide).

So I see this argued sometimes and I come down on the other side. Heavily obscured reads:

"A heavily obscured area—such as Darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see Conditions) when trying to see something in that area."

So by saying that characters know where something is when it is heavily obscured should allow any players to know where every monster is within a dungeon, because all monsters in the dungeon are heavily obscured from them (They have vision to them blocked entirely). This is obviously absurd. So the only other option is that having vision blocked entirely means that you don't know where a creature is unless you take an action to determine it some other way (listening at a door for example).

So if a character goes invisible in the books, another character may take a turn listening to try to pinpoint them, and then point them out to the rest of the party, but they don't automatically know where they are.

Also, greater invisibility lasts only a minute. Not long enough to do scouting runs. It's also two spell levels higher, while characters can get access to invisibility at level 3, allowing those two sorcerers to use it pretty much right from the start of the game.

[Berserkr]

I just cast pass without a trace on the whole party, then go with my ranger and explore the whole zone, reveal all the enemies then move my party to a fast travel spot and proceed to mow down every group one at a time, free surprise round, but yes greater invisibility is broken AF

[Dallas S]

Originally posted by jakinbandw:

Originally posted by LJ-the-brave:

Just take one or two sorcerers, cast greater invisibility with twinned metamagic and better cast it on a rogue(s) for easy sneak attack every time.

I'll disagree here. Specifically because of how short greater invisibility lasts. 1 minute isn't enough to do any real scouting, and unless you know for sure that an encounter is coming (which is kinda like reading a module before playing it), it isn't really a viable option. Now there is an interesting argument to have two casters holding up invisibility on the group while a sorcerer has see invisibility up on themselves, and then when combat starts, they cast greater invisibility on themselves and another party member. I could see this working just fine. That said, it still requires invisibility to pull off.

Originally posted by Dallas S:

That's because invisibility doesn't work like it does in tabletop.

In solasta it makes you unable to know where the enemy is, which invisibility in tabletop does not (you have to hide to do that, and you're treated as heavily obscured when you hide).

So I see this argued sometimes and I come down on the other side. Heavily obscured reads:

"A heavily obscured area—such as Darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see Conditions) when trying to see something in that area."

So by saying that characters know where something is when it is heavily obscured should allow any players to know where every monster is within a dungeon, because all monsters in the dungeon are heavily obscured from them (They have vision to them blocked entirely). This is obviously absurd. So the only other option is that having vision blocked entirely means that you don't know where a creature is unless you take an action to determine it some other way (listening at a door for example).

So if a character goes invisible in the books, another character may take a turn listening to try to pinpoint them, and then point them out to the rest of the party, but they don't automatically know where they are.

Also, greater invisibility lasts only a minute. Not long enough to do scouting runs. It's also two spell levels higher, while characters can get access to invisibility at level 3, allowing those two sorcerers to use it pretty much right from the start of the game.

"For the Purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s Location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."

You still have to hide to have someone not know where you are, which most people requires an action (thief rogues can do this as a bonus action).

You're not just automatically heavily obscured, you need to hide. Without hiding enemies still know where you are and can target you normally (though with disadvantage).

[jakinbandw]

Originally posted by Dallas S:

"For the Purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s Location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."

You still have to hide to have someone not know where you are, which most people requires an action (thief rogues can do this as a bonus action).

You didn't quote the first part: "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a Special sense."

So again, unless PCs can know where all monsters are, even if they can't see them, they still don't need to hide. And if you say that invisible characters give away their position with noise, then surely that is true for all the monsters in the dungeon, the characters can just listen without needing to take an action, and know immediately where all monsters within their hearing range are.

[Dallas S]

Originally posted by jakinbandw:

Originally posted by Dallas S:

"For the Purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s Location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."

You still have to hide to have someone not know where you are, which most people requires an action (thief rogues can do this as a bonus action).

You didn't quote the first part: "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a Special sense."

So again, unless PCs can know where all monsters are, even if they can't see them, they still don't need to hide. And if you say that invisible characters give away their position with noise, then surely that is true for all the monsters in the dungeon, the characters can just listen without needing to take an action, and know immediately where all monsters within their hearing range are.

Yes, impossible to see. Not hear, or see footprints or other clues, as referenced in the second part.

You need to hide to be heavily obscured, the other creatures in the dungeon are heavily obscured unless you have line of sight.

The heavily obscured for hiding purposes means that when you hide you're heavily obscured (the same as being out of line of sight). You still need to hide to do that.

Jeremy Crawford the rules master of 5e confirmed this in sage advice. "but unless invisible creatures attempt to sneak, something reveals their general location."

https://dmdavid.com/tag/how-well-do-you-understand-invisibility-in-dungeons-dragons/

Crawford discusses this at 29:38

https://dnd.wizards.com/podcasts/dragon-talk

Plus there's tons of other sources that confirm this.

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/01/dd-invisibility-doesnt-work-the-way-you-think-it-does.html

[jakinbandw]

Originally posted by Dallas S:

Yes, impossible to see. Not hear, or see footprints or other clues, as referenced in the second part.

This is true for all monsters in a dungeon though. They all are making noise. According to this reading, A character can stand at the entrance to a dungeon and tell where all monsters are by just listening. Even if they are hiding, the character can just keep making perception checks over and over.

Also this> "You need to hide to be heavily obscured"

Is wrong. (For the most part) You can't hide unless you're heavily obscured. With your reading of the rule, most characters could never hide, because they couldn't become heavily obscured unless they hid, but they would need to hide to be heavily obscured.

Also, Crawford has given contradictory responses to multiple rules over the years, and his advice changes. It also is only to give guidance to GMs, not to be strict rules, so I'll stick what what's in the book.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-rulings-rules-and-twitter-or-how-sage-advice-changed.679712/

[Dallas S]

I just realized the link just takes you to the page with all the podcasts.

It's titled James haek on dnd writing, way down the list. At 29:38 is where Jeremy Crawford talks about the invisibility rule.

[Dallas S]

Yes, the book rules, and everybody's interpretation of it is that you need to hide while invisible to have enemies not know where you are. It's pretty clear cut in the players handbook and every DM that explains it (by all means google it and you'll find tons of articles of people explaining this).

And yes, for the purpose of hiding (as it strictly says in the invisibility condition), you are heavily obscured. So you can hide in plain sight while invisible when normally you couldn't, because for the purpose of hiding, you are heavily obscured. Thanks for clarifying that about the invisibility condition.

You still need to hide though for that to be relevant.

[jakinbandw]

Originally posted by Berserkr:

I just cast pass without a trace on the whole party, then go with my ranger and explore the whole zone, reveal all the enemies then move my party to a fast travel spot and proceed to mow down every group one at a time, free surprise round, but yes greater invisibility is broken AF

PwT is great, don't get me wrong. But sometimes you can't get past areas you want to because of patrolling enemies, and it doesn't provide protection from cutscene boss fights. For example in the necromancer manor, at a few points you open a door, and then have to deal with a possible boss fight immediately. That's where invisibility really shines. There's no way to know which doors lead to boss fights, so Greater Invisibility is impractical, while invisibility allows you to easily set up.

Originally posted by Dallas S:

Yes, the book rules, and everybody's interpretation of it is that you need to hide while invisible to have enemies not know where you are. It's pretty clear cut in the players handbook and every DM that explains it (by all means google it and you'll find tons of articles of people explaining this).

I mean, the GMs of this very game don't agree with that ruling, so you're obviously wrong there. Also, just because lots of groups run things wrong, doesn't mean that I have to agree that they aren't wrong. Most groups get social interactions within 5e wrong as well. That doesn't mean that I won't actually follow the rules as written.

[Dallas S]

I don't know if there's any other source that has invisibility rules like solasta does, so that's one source vs countless others that have the rules properly.

Solasta also has wrong advantage rules too (regular rules have it if you have 20 sources of advantage, it only takes one source of disadvantage to cancel it out, while solasta would require 20 sources of disadvantage to cancel it out).

Ranged rules are obviously homebrewed in solasta (because map sizes don't account for regular ranged rules). Among many other things. Doesn't mean that's the rules in tabletop.

Rules as written are stated exactly as I said. Solasta and yourself are doing rules as interpreted, and making invisibility stronger than it normally is.

[jakinbandw]

Originally posted by Dallas S:

Rules as written are stated exactly as I said. Solasta and yourself are doing rules as interpreted, and making invisibility stronger than it normally is.

I mean, I guess most groups are as well, as with your interpretation of RAW, you should know where every creature is due to the sounds they make. Doors don't block sound, and if you can tell where creatures are without having to see them based on sounds alone, then it follows you should know where all creatures are. This seems absurd to me, so I'll continue to play with people having to make checks to locate invisible creatures, just like I'll continue to require checks to determine what monsters are on the other side of a closed door.

Your take on this matter is absurd.

[Dallas S]

It's not my take, it's literally the rules as written and confirmed by the guy who wrote them.

I don't know why you keep arguing about knowing where every creature is in a dungeon. Knowing where something is takes line of sight to the spot where they are, and proximity to the target.

An invisible person 10 feet away from you can easily be detected - unless they hide and thus become heavily obscured.

They are not heavily obscured until they hide, I don't know what part of that you aren't understanding.

I'll reiterate right from the players handbook once again, "For the Purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s Location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."


Remember that part at the start - "for the purpose of hiding "

[jakinbandw]

I'm going to drop this. At the end of the day, I really do feel that invisibility in Solestia is really underrated in guides.