In praise of Spike Growth.

[bobarian]

Just have to say that I am in love with this spell. Have it on some warlocks or Rangers and one gets serious bang for your buck.

[DiceWrangler]

Spike Growth is one of the most OP spells in the game due to a suicidal enemy AI.

[Grumpy Old Dude]

early game, it is grossly OP...great though for finishing off approaching enemies your archers have wounded but not yet dropped dead.

[Frostfeather]

It can vary quite a bit depending on the campaign and your group. In Temple of Elemental Evil for example, it's *extremely* overpowered since almost every fight is against non-flying enemies with a choke point. It's good very often in Ruins of Ilthismar and the main campaign. But in others like Morrows Deep, there are more fights where enemies come from different directions, teleport, fly, shoot Lightning through walls, etc. Especially in the 6 player Morrows Deep campaign, it just won't perform like it does in other campaigns.

And using the Unfinished Business mod changes things a bit, too, since it adds so many more options. That effectively decreases Spike Growth's power compared to these newer, often objectively overpowered options. Which is probably a good thing.

[bobarian]

Originally posted by DiceWrangler:

Spike Growth is one of the most OP spells in the game due to a suicidal enemy AI.

They've made the AI smarter in Ice Palace.

[Nobody]

Spike growth is great … but it has a serious opportunity cost:

- warlock loses malediction concentration if the warlock casts it, and wastes a valuable slot, costing you 2-3 fireballs cast at your max per short rest lvl by choosing tree vs fiend (Malediction can easily last through 8 hours worth of short rests if you don’t use another concentration spell) . The warlock also loses an entire DPS turn. ((1D10+5+1d8 ) x3, plus potential to knock critters off of ledges)

- if the ranger casts it, he loses Hunter ‘s mark, and loses an entire round of attacks, losing a long rest slot in addition to the spike growth slot. He also competes with pass without a trace for slots, which increases ranged dps for warlocks/rangers/arcanist wizards(scorching ray ftw)/essentially all non rogues by remaining in stealth. It also greatly helps focus enemy dps on the tanks by hiding everyone else)

- Druid can cast it, but you lose out on moonbeam, or call lightning or haste, bringing your druids contribution to dps to its knees. That’s not counting the opportunity cost of having a Druid to begin with vs a war cleric with 2x attacks per round + spiritual weapon + spirit guardians + fireballs. And guidance for skill checks/disarm/pick lock.

In short, spike growth in the few maps where it can bottleneck melee enemies is Uber, and not a ‘bad’ extra tool to have, just in case a situation arises, (I killed 2 ogres and the dire wolf and goblins with one cast, no danger to anyone at lvl 3 at the time I think it was, only spell I cast that encounter too) but … it’s not free damage by any stretch.

My ideal party:

Paladin (mother, defence or dueling, AC aura, sword and board tank with concentration, medium dps, huge AoE dex-based blind attack that’s awesome, shield of faith) , diplomacy & intimidate

War cleric, ranged, spiritual hammer, fireball, hidden for extra accuracy, ranged stun, ocasional off-tank with spirit guardians and rapier or other dex weapon, until strength gloves can then use any neato 1h

Warlock fiend, 2-3 fireballs per short rest, repelling blast, deception, chain to bonus action disengage for free with extra movement . Also saves wizard slots by having spider climb and other such utility spells on short rests slots

Arcanist Wizard, because scorching ray and fireball and other such spells. And identify. And haste. Though none of your targets are amazing haste targets, tank is likely it. Improved invisibility the tank instead of haste once available. Although often an hypnotic pattern is more powerful. A Druid can replace the wizard if you shift identify to the warlock at the cost of disengage but eh. You lose crazy AOE & single target burst damage from the wizard.

I just can’t see myself purposely replacing my cleric (3 attacks, fireball, buffs, emergency healing, spirit guardians) with either a Druid (single lame attack or single ok attack with slots that burns concentration and stops spike growth, haste, etc), or ranger (higher single target dps, no bless, no fireball etc, no off-tanking with spirit guardians, no AC & damage aura) , and my warlock is amazingly fun. Repelling blast and hazardous terrain is fun as heck.

I COULD replace the Paladin with a dual wielding ranger (blade +2AC +clocks and dagger, neat spells since dual wield ranger can’t use hunters mark anyway, no AC aura no fire resistance, no AoE blind all the enemies surrounding you, much higher dps than Paladin with higher AC but no burst) and spike growth the crap out of my only tank each big fight.

But that’s as far as I’d be willing to go to use spike growth, and the loss of Paladin aura saves and AoE blind and burst healing is pretty harsh.

I can’t help but feel that if I wanted more damage, A two-handed Paladin with shield spell (AC feats (+1AC from feats, +1 defence, +4 shield spell, only smite on crit) Paladin would still be more fun to play. (Can get 2 AC from feats but concentration advantage is a must for +2
AC or divine favor or bless imho)

Besides, no ranger makes rations kind of fun! Encumbrance (and boots of striding and springing and carrying rations) become awesome lol.

[Ommamar]

Yes Spike Growth takes the concentration slot but that doesn't mean you can't drop it to put in place any of the spells mentioned. The whole 5E system is designed around making tactical decisions. So you change to another option when the spell is no longer useful like when the enemies that can survive it have run through or in some cases around its location. It is still a pretty powerful spell to use in a lot of situations even at higher levels. I use to be upset that Greenmage never got spike growth but they get an even stronger spell of the same type except it will hit flyers as well.

[Soteria]

I don't find "losing a round of attacks" to be a downside, since when I use it, it's usually before combat starts.

[Berserkr]

Put pass without a trace on your ranger and party then sneak around the whole zone with the ranger revealing pretty much every enemy then go back and pick all your fights, all that for one spell slot, as awesome as spike growth is I'll take pass without a trace for that one spell slot for sure

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Berserkr:

Put pass without a trace on your ranger and party then sneak around the whole zone with the ranger revealing pretty much every enemy then go back and pick all your fights, all that for one spell slot, as awesome as spike growth is I'll take pass without a trace for that one spell slot for sure

It is awesome but the cloak that lets you cast it is relatively common. Or a grassland Druid or Greenmage or ideally Warlock (UB) could cover it too.

Pass Without Trace is one of the most op spells in the game though, even after it was nerfed. So if your Ranger is the only option to cast it, it probably is a better choice vs Spike Growth.

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by bobarian:

They've made the AI smarter in Ice Palace.

I'm curious what the change was? Because it seems that melee enemies still just run into damage spells like they always have. And ranged/caster ones can be "dragged" into it by moving out of their line of sight and forcing them to enter the spells to get LoS back (unless they have Lightning Bolt or Cone of Cold, then they just shoot through walls like they always have).

[Berserkr]

Originally posted by night4:

I'm curious what the change was? Because it seems that melee enemies still just run into damage spells like they always have. And ranged/caster ones can be "dragged" into it by moving out of their line of sight and forcing them to enter the spells to get LoS back (unless they have Lightning Bolt or Cone of Cold, then they just shoot through walls like they always have).

Now they actually give it some thought about the pain they'll suffer, but then they still run right in like Leeroy Jenkins

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by Berserkr:

Now they actually give it some thought about the pain they'll suffer, but then they still run right in like Leeroy Jenkins

Lol