Opinions about Greenmage?

[Ninth Hour]

So I am still very early in the game, as my recent posts reflect. I had difficulty choosing between the different arcane orders at level 2. While I was really contemplating the Shock Arcanist (casting combat spells at higher levels seems quite powerful), I ultimately selected the Greenmage, given all the useful druidic spells available.

Also, being proficient in the shortbow and light armor felt like a nice bonus.

But now I'm getting buyer's remorse and am wondering if attack power might actually have been more useful for a campaign that- from what I can tell- is highly combat-focused.

My choices were also informed by my familiarity with 3.5E (prior to Pathfinder, which I have also never played). Back then, cantrips were not unlimited, so having more weapon proficiencies for the mage to fall back on was actually useful.

But I now realize that mages don't really need back up weapons, as they can just sling cantrips all day, which typically do more damage than arrows. So bow proficiency now seems redundant. And Mage Armor is superior to light armor for the most part- although having decently enchanted light armor could theoretically save you that one spell slot, I suppose.

So those advantages of the Greenmage class don't actually feel all that great in practice.

Overall, low-level wizards just feel more powerful than they did in previous editions, so I'm sure a Greenmage will still do well. Magic Missile producing 3 projectiles at level 1 feels like a major upgrade- previously, you'd have to be at least level 5 to be able to fling that many.

But is the variety of utility spells granted by the Greenmage worth the tradeoff in raw damage offered by the Shock Arcanist?

Can someone sell me on the virtues of this subclass?

[Azure]

Not played one but the strength of the Wizard as a whole is having a lot of choice of what they bring and the Green mage brings in a selection of spells that are normally the domain of the druid alone. The Bow and armour are neat bonuses to have along and give you options ~ so you don't have to have Mage armour taking up a daily spell cast or want to play up a archer style ~ mage armour also is always just what the spell provides, worn armours can have extra effects in addition to the raw AC. The higher level effects are decent as well. Shock Arcanist is all about the Damage where as Green mage is more about Control and utility.

[xposethedarkside]

Greenmage was originally meant to be a druid feeling subclass when the game came out, but then the actual druid came out in a dlc later on, which kind of nullified the greenmage subclass.

As for the rest of the subclasses, it depends on the role you want your wizard to play. If he's going to hang back and be a backline blaster/aoe caster then shock arcanist is by far the best. In addition to casting all spells one level higher for free, at higher levels they get things like arcane fury and arcane shock that add things like int bonuses to damage and higher average damage dice. Shock arcanists deal in maximum damage from their spells

If you want your mage to fight up front then court mage is the best. Court mage is arguably the best subclass for mage. You gain proficiency with a shield, the protection fighting style, big temp hit point shields. A bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting at the moment because I mostly play shock arcanist.

But yea, that's basically the deal. Shock arcanist for range/backline, and court mage for front line.

I can't think of any really good reason to ever want to play a lore mage, unless you're just really into crafting and scribing scrolls and so forth. I think at higher levels they can memorize more spells per level than either shock arcanist or court mage, but you have to reach those levels first to get that. Shock arcanist and court mage begin paying dividends much earlier on.

[B Unit]

Its a niche occurrence but the bow may be handy if the enemy is weak to piercing or resistant to your cantrip's element or something. The bow will also have a higher chance to hit by virtue of the weapon enchantment and gaining the Archery weapon style.

Studded Leather +2 will provide more AC than Mage Armor and the armor may also provide an additional benefit like save bonus.

Having access to druid spells as a wizard is more of a novelty thing rather than really useful imo since these additional spells still compete for the same spell slots as your 'regular' spells.

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

In the early game, the bow is better than cantrips. Though it's best to use the elf because they'll be using a Longbow instead a Shortbow. Later, the arrow ability they get is a single target crowd control that doesn't require concentration. I definitely made use of Goodberry and some of the Druid spells early on. They also get something like an Uncanny Dodge that only works for ranged attacks on them.

As far as the Shock Arcanst, it's good, but I largely found that I didn't really need its damage boosts. I never even used Arane Shock due to restrain and damage it inflicts on the wizard using it.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by IgnatiusJ.Reilly:

In the early game, the bow is better than cantrips. Though it's best to use the elf because they'll be using a Longbow instead a Shortbow. Later, the arrow ability they get is a single target crowd control that doesn't require concentration. I definitely made use of Goodberry and some of the Druid spells early on. They also get something like an Uncanny Dodge that only works for ranged attacks on them.

As far as the Shock Arcanst, it's good, but I largely found that I didn't really need its damage boosts. I never even used Arane Shock due to restrain and damage it inflicts on the wizard using it.

I actually had not intended, originally, to play a Greenmage, as it felt like the concept was more suitable for elves and I had decided to create a human mage- just for variety, as the rest of the party were demihumans, But somewhere along the way, I read that the utility offered by the Greenmage was helpful and after seeing the weapon and armor proficiencies, decided to give the subclass a try.

Given that my mage has Dex 16 and Int 19, I think that her cantrips outclass the bow, even at level 2, especially as she is not an elf and won't gain longbow proficiency. To confirm, the Int bonus adds to both the bonus to hit and the damage of the cantrip? At least it seemed that way.

Again, I had forgotten- when I made this choice- that cantrips in 5E are unlimited. Firebolts and Chill Touch seem to have a lot of utility, which a bow does not grant (unless there are elemental arrows in the game). I guess I'll just see how it actually plays out the rest of the game- I'm sure I can make it work even if it does not feel fitting for the way I built my character.

[Spicy Camel]

You can use say light crossbow instead of short bow. 1d8+3 damage is better than 1d10 firebolt damage. Int doesnt add damage to cantrip (or to any other spell), just to hit/dc.

Your ranged attack is also higher then spell attack because archery style gives + 2.

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

Well, there is not bonus to damage from spell-casting ability modifier but your Dex would add a +3 to piercing damage. You'd also have a +1 greater to hit due to the free Archery fighting style you get.

Later, when you can craft magical bows that add bonus dies to damage, such as the Medusa Shortbow, the shortbow could be competitive with your cantrips before 11th level. I believe the Medusa Shortbows adds 1d8 poison damage on a hit. Of course, one can always just use poison arrows which are commonly found loot,

[Ommamar]

Look at the merchant for the tower of knowledge she has a lot of recipes for high end arrows and bolts. One spell the Greenmage gets that some claim completely breaks the game is path without a trace. If you want a spell casting archer then Greenmage is the way to go, if not you might be disenchanted with the class. You can also get longbow proficiency using feats at level 4, 8 and 12.

[Doombringer]

Greenmage is fine if your party doesn't have a ranger or druid.
If you have a ranger or druid the sub-class becomes redundant.
(You don't need 2 people who can cast pass without trace or goodberry.)

[silvergriffon]

When comparing bows to cantrips, don't forget that not only can you get magic bows, but special arrows that add damage. A +1 shortbow firing corrosive or flaming arrows deals 2d6+1 damage. Tiger Fang arrows would make that 4d6+1. Of course, these arrows are expensive and/or time consuming to craft. And if you take the Powerful Cantrip feat then cantrips become guaranteed damage, which is harder to compete with.

Mage Armor ties up a precious spell slot and if you have a travel encounter you have to waste your first action casting it. And if you were surprised you have a dangerous first round indeed. Light armor seems preferable to me, especially once you have +1 or +2 light armors available.

Greenmage also has the largest spell list of any Wizard. At low levels, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Pass Without Trace and Goodberry are all excellent spells. If you are into that sort of thing, the Greenmage gets a monster summoning spell at 5th level (Conjure Animal) where other Wizards don't get one until 7th level (Conjure Minor Elementals). Contagion is a great single target debuff that does not require concentration.

[guard65]

I play a Wizard Green Mage sub-class but it is multi-classed with the Rouge Raven sub-class (CE). Giving my rouge super power archer cc and utility spell abilities. Not to mention that green mage arrows cause the target to save or be rooted in place by vines (dc).

I will spit an fireball out my *** once in a while but the focus is sniper archer with cc arrows.

[Cartesian Duelist]

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

Given that my mage has Dex 16 and Int 19, I think that her cantrips outclass the bow, even at level 2, especially as she is not an elf and won't gain longbow proficiency. To confirm, the Int bonus adds to both the bonus to hit and the damage of the cantrip? At least it seemed that way.

Int bonus does not get added to cantrip damage so until you reach level 5 and your cantrips start using two dice, the bow is usually better damage-wise. And later in the game there are some decent bows with additional effects that are worth looking at.

As far as I'm concerned, Greenmage is the best Wizard subclass. I've gone Shock Arcanist a couple times and never noticed the extra damage to be something that turns the tide in any particular fight.

Edit: I'll also throw in that it's definitely worth taking the Uncanny Accuracy feat for any Wizard. It does work with ranged spell attacks.

[e.hough]

Some notes on cantrips vs bow (may have been mentioned by previous casters, but I find it helps to have a summary):

1) Unless you are playing a draconic sorcerer or a warlock (newest DLC) cantrips do NOT get bonus damage from your casting stat, bows do get bonus damage from DEX.
2) The attack bonus for for archery weapon style is +2, which is a HUGE bonus as to hit bonuses are hard to come by.
3) You can get bows that add +dX damage in elemental form and you can craft arrows that add +1d6 elemental damage, which means you could have, say, a stormbow doing 1d8+1d10(electric)+1 damage with arrows of acid doing +1d6 damage for a total of 3-24 + DEX bonus damage.
4) while a longbow is superior to a shortbow, its only +1 damage better on the average so unless you are an elf it is probably not worth burning a feat to get longbow proficiency.

This means that if your dex is anywhere near your casting stat, a bow or other ranged weapon will generally be superior to a cantrip up to level 5 and is likely to be a good choice up to L11 when cantrips go up to 3dX. For a greenmage unless your INT is 6 points or more higher than your dex, it will always be a better choice up to L5 and usually will be better up to L11. After that it STILL might be a better choice, depending upon what bow/arrows you have available.

As mentioned by previous posters a greenmage is meant to be a sort of cheap multiclass mage/druid, so a real druid will always be better at the druid stuff and a ranger will always be a better archer and both can cover any food requirements with greenberry. So if you have either of those in your party your best off with a shock arcanist as they have HUGE amounts of burst damage and with food requirements covered you have plenty of opportunities to rest between fights in both the base campaign and the Lost Valley.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Cartesian Duelist:

I've gone Shock Arcanist a couple times and never noticed the extra damage to be something that turns the tide in any particular fight.

I've noticed Shock Arcanist's value much more when using AoE rather than single target focused combat (those extra levels of damage add up the more enemies you hit).

That mostly comes down to lining things up well, but I have landed some big mob wipes with Fireball and Cone of Cold with it.

[dataseer21]

The greenmage, if I it was the one that I played, is a good subclass. You have proficiency in light armor, which means that you can take the feat to give you proficiency in medium armor for a good AC with shield. Also good berry is good. Pass without trace is amazing in pnp but I still am undecided about it in this game(I just can't position it in real time that well and it seemed to me that once I took out an enemy they started combat anyway. Which is still good mind you.). I don't remember if they get conjure animals but that would be a good spell too. You can still select the best wizard spells. I haven't played the other wizards yet but I think it was a good class. I don't know I think that a resting 17 ac for a wizard is good boosted to 22 with shield.

EDIT: Looking at what people are saying ignore the weapons. You have cantrips which aren't the main focus either. You want to change the tide of combat with spells. You shouldn't be trying to compete with other classes in weapon strikes without stats for it, fighting style, or extra attack, etc.