"investigation not used in scholasta main campaign"

[Melchor]

excuse me if im wrong, but isnt investigation the primary skill for detecting traps, and secret doors and similar hidden objects?

the general rule in DnD5 is that the difference between perception and investigation as a skill is mostly time. (there are other cases, like actively listening for a conversation on the other side of a wall or door would be using perception).

perception is mostly used for noticing stuff at a glance, while investigation is used when youre methodically searching (like moving cauteous while looking for traps, and secret doors).

so investigation should be used while your character is moving cautious, and perception while he is running past objects at normal speed.

generally if youre "noticing" its perception, and when youre "searching" its investigation.

[Dallas S]

No .

Noticing is passive perception, not perception. Passive perception is a thing that's active all the time, that's you "noticing" stuff. Passive perception is used when you're running past things. Perception is you actively looking or listening for something.

Investigation is completely different, it's gathering information in towns, collecting clues and trying to deduce from those clues. Like what weapon the person was killed by, going through ancient scrolls to find a specific piece of information, etc.

The attribute it's governed by tells you a lot about it too. Investigation is intelligence, perception is wisdom.

Investigation is a more educated approach at something using deduction skills and clue gathering, perception is what you see and hear, and how good you are at seeing and hearing.

[Heu, Iterum Id Feci]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/what-abilities-are-used-to-find-or-disarm-traps/
https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/737439126161477632
Directly from Christopher Perkins:

Usually it's a Wisdom (Perception) check to find a trap and a Dexterity check to disable it.

That said, if you do a thorough search about a place or object, with consulting it's history, blueprints etc. you certainly could use investigation to find a trap, however that's not the same skill used, as when you are there in the dungeon and looking for traps.
There it's passive perception for automatically noticing any traps and active perception checks for active searches. Depending on the environment other skills might help, ie survival for beartraps or pittraps in the wilds etc.

[Melchor]

Originally posted by Psychotron69666:

Investigation is completely different, it's gathering information in towns, collecting clues and trying to deduce from those clues. Like what weapon the person was killed by, going through ancient scrolls to find a specific piece of information, etc.

thats also part of the skill. athletics also combines a bunch of different things for example, like swimming, running, climbing etc.

the skills in 5e are more like skill groups compared to 3.5, where you would have "spot, listen, smell" etc. all separate now grouped up as "perception".

investigation is not just collecting clues, but closely inspecting an object, or when youre making your way through a dungeon, its inspecting walls and floors for sign of traps, secret doors and mechanisms.

so what used to be "search" in 3.5 is now part of investigation.

what youre talking about would be more applicable if youre just darting past traps or secret doors, and not closely inspecting it. but then id also let you make the roll with disadvantage as a DM unless you have a specific feat that allows you to use perception to discover traps while moving at full speed.

[Dallas S]

Originally posted by Melchor:

Originally posted by Psychotron69666:

Investigation is completely different, it's gathering information in towns, collecting clues and trying to deduce from those clues. Like what weapon the person was killed by, going through ancient scrolls to find a specific piece of information, etc.

thats also part of the skill. athletics also combines a bunch of different things for example, like swimming, running, climbing etc.

the skills in 5e are more like skill groups compared to 3.5, where you would have "spot, listen, smell" etc. all separate.

investigation is not just collecting clues, but closely inspecting an object, or when youre making your way through a dungeon, its inspecting walls and floors for sign of traps.

so what used to be "search" in 3.5 is now part of investigation.

No it's not. Look at the above post..from the developers of 5e themselves, perception is used to find traps.

Yes investigation is a lot of things, and in some scenarios it could be used to find traps, but for finding traps as you make your way through a dungeon, it's perception.

[Melchor]

Originally posted by Psychotron69666:

Originally posted by Melchor:

thats also part of the skill. athletics also combines a bunch of different things for example, like swimming, running, climbing etc.

the skills in 5e are more like skill groups compared to 3.5, where you would have "spot, listen, smell" etc. all separate.

investigation is not just collecting clues, but closely inspecting an object, or when youre making your way through a dungeon, its inspecting walls and floors for sign of traps.

so what used to be "search" in 3.5 is now part of investigation.

No it's not. Look at the above post..from the developers of 5e themselves, perception is used to find traps.

Yes investigation is a lot of things, and in some scenarios it could be used to find traps, but for finding traps as you make your way through a dungeon, it's perception.

ive seen it described like this in many different sources and the groups ive seen playing so far all used investigation to find traps and hidden mechanisms.

like i said, the way i would handle it personally would be investigation for cautious movement and looking for traps, and perception at a disadvantage if youre moving at normal speed.

the logic here is that invesigation is used for ... well investigating the area methodically, while perception is used to notice something at a glance, or in special cases doing stuff listening in to conversations at the other side of the room, or through a door.

perception would also be way too powerful and versatile as a skill, if you were able to do all of this stuff with it. it would mean basically every character should pick up proficiency with it.

[Melchor]

Originally posted by Psychotron69666:

The attribute it's governed by tells you a lot about it too. Investigation is intelligence, perception is wisdom.

i think its also important to point out, that the attribute is not always the same and can change dependent on the circumstance.

the basis of what youre doing in dnd5 is a stat check, to which proficiency in a skill may apply if it makes sense.

in most of the cases, the skill proficiency applies to a stat check that is associated with a skill, but not in all cases.

for example, climbing a wall would be a strength check to which your proficiency modifier applies if youre proficient in athletics.

but running a marathon for example would be a constitution check (since its a feat of endurance and not of strength), to which your proficiency in athletics could also apply, making it a athletics (constitution) check.

it works similar with the tool proficiencies. when youre inventing something with your tinker tools as an artificer, it would be an intelligence check with proficiency bonus. if youre building or repairing something like a cart, it would be a dexterity check with your tinker tool proficiency.

thats why its best to always think of skill checks by starting with a stat that is associated for the action, and then think if and which skill proficiency applies.

[Qored]

Official modules use both investigation and perception for their traps and secret doors. With no discernable pattern for when one is used instead of the other. I prefer using investigation for my games, with perception being used for spotting signs of things, but not more exact information. Example would be perception spotting scrapes on a floor from a hidden door, but giving no clue how to open it

[Melchor]

Originally posted by Qored:

Official modules use both investigation and perception for their traps and secret doors. With no discernable pattern for when one is used instead of the other. I prefer using investigation for my games, with perception being used for spotting signs of things, but not more exact information. Example would be perception spotting scrapes on a floor from a hidden door, but giving no clue how to open it

good point. i guess this is territory where two different skills are applicable in different ways.

similar to how arcana, nature, religion or history could tell you information about a monster depend on if you read it about it in stories and history books, or if you learned about it as part of your specific profession related study.

a wizard might know what a magical construct is through his magic studies and roll for arcana to recognize a golem, and a bard might heave heared about it in song or stories.

i like your approach of giving the player hints that something is off without telling him specifics.

this would mean both skills can work together. noticing that something is off, followed by an investigation that can tell more.

in case of this game, perception could cause a text above the players head to prompt, followed by a voiceover line like "wait, ive spotted something", while investigation would reveal the trap or hidden door.

[Dallas S]

Originally posted by Melchor:

Originally posted by Qored:

Official modules use both investigation and perception for their traps and secret doors. With no discernable pattern for when one is used instead of the other. I prefer using investigation for my games, with perception being used for spotting signs of things, but not more exact information. Example would be perception spotting scrapes on a floor from a hidden door, but giving no clue how to open it

good point. i guess this is territory where two different skills are applicable in different ways.

similar to how arcana, nature, religion or history could tell you information about a monster depend on if you read it about it in stories and history books, or if you learned about it as part of your specific profession related study.

a wizard might know what a magical construct is through his magic studies and roll for arcana to recognize a golem, and a bard might heave heared about it in song or stories.

i like your approach of giving the player hints that something is off without telling him specifics.

this would mean both skills can work together. noticing that something is off, followed by an investigation that can tell more.

in case of this game, perception could cause a text above the players head to prompt, followed by a voiceover line like "wait, ive spotted something", while investigation would reveal the trap or hidden door.

Your last sentence here is essentially how it's supposed to work. Perception would allow you to see the markings of a trap or secret door, investigation would be knowing how it operates, and sleight of hand would be disarming the trap.

Doesn't matter how intelligent and good you are at investigation if you have the eyesight of Mr. Magoo.

[Melchor]

Originally posted by Psychotron69666:

Your last sentence here is essentially how it's supposed to work. Perception would allow you to see the markings of a trap or secret door, investigation would be knowing how it operates, and sleight of hand would be disarming the trap.

Doesn't matter how intelligent and good you are at investigation if you have the eyesight of Mr. Magoo.

right, but this still means the game isnt using the skill mechanics correctly.

it should be perception to get a hint that something is around but not revealing anything specific, while investigation gives you the secret door as interactable object (youve found the mechanism to open it), or the red square to disarm the trap (you understood the type of trap and how you can possibly disarm it).

if the game isnt using investigation at all in the main campaign, then theyre probably only using perception.

[Heu, Iterum Id Feci]

Originally posted by Melchor:

right, but this still means the game isnt using the skill mechanics correctly.

I hope you forgive me, when I take chris perkins word on that over yours ;)

[Elwetritsch]

I considered "perception" as some sort of parallel process with high or low intensity. A deliberate time investment would turn this into a project that gets full attention, an "investigation". Something like:

Casually walking past a secret? -> passive perception
Carefully advancing past a secret? -> perception
Performing a thorough search? -> investigation

Easy enough on a table, but a bit clunky in a game. Imagine we would not find "traps" but "zones of interest" and spend X minutes to perform a proper investigation. Right now i don`t think it would add enough to the game to justify the slowdown.

[bbii]

The difference between investigation and perception is the base stat.
5E explains it plainly.
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.

So both can be used to detect traps. There is passive perception though and no passive investigation. Active perception you might notice a odd scap on a floor that would tell you something may have been moved and that bookcase might be a secret door.
Investigation is when you want specific details.

[Grumpy Old Dude]

Almost the reverse of how Gygaz defined the difference between WIS and INT:

"INT tells me smoking is bad for my health. WIS, enables me to quit smoking". Seems Gary would have used INT to perceive, and WIS to search. But what does he know about DnD?

[Melchor]

Originally posted by bbii:

The difference between investigation and perception is the base stat.
5E explains it plainly.
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.

When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.

So both can be used to detect traps. There is passive perception though and no passive investigation. Active perception you might notice a odd scap on a floor that would tell you something may have been moved and that bookcase might be a secret door.
Investigation is when you want specific details.

there is a passive investigation score for your character.

the observant feat for example explicitly increases your passive perception and your passive investigation by 5.

both scores are directly mentioned in the feats description. page 168 in the PHB.