Concerning Concentration

[Severian]

Let me dive right into it. Of all the crpgs I have ever played, this one has the worst magic system of all of them - by a long shot!
And the reason for that is in 19 out of 20 cases the abominable concentration requirement.

I found, for example, that the best thing my Wizard could spend his concentration on was Hasting my Paladin (even with Haste being limited to one target, now, with no ability to upcast it for more), and then go to town with Fireball, Cone of Cold or whatever other damage spell I had to hand.
Thank god I chose Shock Mage on a whim, who can boost his damaging spells, because I have no idea what a Loremaster or a Green Whatever would have done, seeing that, other than damage spells, every godsdamned spell in the game requires your concentration.

My Cleric suffered the exact same fate as my Wizard, concentrating on one choice spell, and then to turn to ten rounds of mindless smashing enemies over the head with a blunt instrument.

Paladin, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ ditto.

Literally the only choices I made with those characters were whether or not to smite/channel divinity for more damage.

What the actual ♥♥♥♥!

To make matters considerably worse, even magic effects from the items you attune to require your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ concentration. I haven't used the super cool sounding boots of levitation once in my entire playthrough! Same for the abilities of the super awesome Ring of the Grand Inquisitor or something!

Is this actual D-n-♥♥♥♥♥♥♥-D, anymore? Who thought this would be fun?

As much as I loathe the endless pre-battle buffing of Pathfinder: Kingmaker - I would kill for that magic system here.
And as for BG3 - I pray to Bhaal they homebrew the crap out of the actual 5th Edition rules! Purists be damned!

[EdrickV]

Originally posted by LuRaZ:

I was just about to post a thread about this topic, but I think I already got my answer :D So we really cannot use more than 1 spell at a time using "Spell focus" right? Even if we would equip 3 different items with spell focus, we can still cast only 1 spell focus spell right? Or?

A spell focus has nothing to do with Concentration. A spell focus takes the place of material components in most spells. (Depending on your settings, there are some spells that may still require expensive spell components, which might be destroyed when casting the spell.) You only really benefit from having one spell focus equipped. The varieties are so you can pick whatever slot you want to use, that you won't be using for other stuff.

Concentration is one of the attributes of some spells, like Dancing Lights, Bless, Flaming Sphere, that last more then one turn. It means the wizard is actively maintaining the spell. However it used to mean something different.

Back in 2e you could attempt to break the concentration of a spell caster while they were trying to cast a spell. (Basically by using a ready action.) If they were hit by an attack while casting a spell, the spell would be ruined unless they had the concentration skill and succeeded in a skill check. (As I recall from memory.) 3e also had the Concentration skill and a new feat to give a boost to it: Combat Casting. (Pathfinder I understand inherited that feat and I assume the skill.) It could also be used in situations where it would be difficult to cast a spell. 4e I don't know about.

5e changed concentration to only apply to specific spells instead of every spell, and changed how it works. It's still about disrupting spells, but now not all spells can be disrupted. Over all, I like 5e wizards better then 2e/3e. In 2e/3e a wizard could be downright useless if he didn't have the right spell(s) memorized, or had run out of spells. 5e wizards at least have their cantrips, and are a lot more versatile. While their casting is similar to 3e sorcerers, wizards can learn a lot more spells, do have to choose which spells to memorize, and can learn spells from scrolls. 3e sorcerers had extremely limited spell lists, couldn't augment them except at level up, (as I recall) but could pick whichever spell they wanted to use.

Solasta, as a D&D 5e game, is I think made as a game for fans of D&D. And in my opinion it succeeds very well. Concentration may be annoying, but so are traffic lights. Both have reasons for existing. That's just the way things are. :)

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Severian:

I agree with the issue of pre-battle buffing, how could I not. That is most distinctly not fun in PF:KM, and I am not looking forward to it in PF:WotR.

didn't PF:KM 'solve' the pre-buffing problem by simply not allowing most of the buffs to be cast outside of combat? or was it divinity? that way you can either spend several initial turns buffing while the enemies fück you over, or choose only the most essential ones.
while i understand the balance and pre-buffing concerns in 5e/solasta, i do find concentration mechanic incredibly stifling, so i can't say i like it if it's 'for my own good'.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

Originally posted by Severian:

I agree with the issue of pre-battle buffing, how could I not. That is most distinctly not fun in PF:KM, and I am not looking forward to it in PF:WotR.

didn't PF:KM 'solve' the pre-buffing problem by simply not allowing most of the buffs to be cast outside of combat? or was it divinity? that way you can either spend several initial turns buffing while the enemies fück you over, or choose only the most essential ones.
while i understand the balance and pre-buffing concerns in 5e/solasta, i do find concentration mechanic incredibly stifling, so i can't say i like it if it's 'for my own good'.

It wasn't P:K, though a modder did make it less of a chore by making several buffs cast with the click of one button.

[Hobocop]

I distinctly remember PoE2 outright not allowing you to cast most spells out of combat. Which has its own set of problems and arbitrary goofiness associated with it, like being unable to buff your Perception to spot traps unless you're in combat fighting for your life. Because that makes sense.

[rumpelstiltskin]

right, it was pillars

[Aria Athena]

Concentration is my biggest complaint with 5e. I understand why they did it, but in my opinion they went too far and it got in the way of fun. For example10 out of 15 level 4 Wiz spells in Solasta are concentration spells. I understand aoe spells that linger about to be concentration, you don't want your caster to have darkness + entangle + tentacles active at the same time. But why is Hold Person a concentration spell, when the enemy rolls for save every turn? Or why the ♥♥♥♥ does Expeditious Retreat require concentration, dash as a bonus action is where we draw the line?

As a Paladin you can't have Bless on the party plus Magic Weapon. Bless makes sense, but why is MW a concentration spell? Plsu if you have either of those, you can't even use Branding Smite, which is a bonus action that lasts for one attack.

Originally posted by Hobocop:

I distinctly remember PoE2 outright not allowing you to cast most spells out of combat. Which has its own set of problems and arbitrary goofiness associated with it, like being unable to buff your Perception to spot traps unless you're in combat fighting for your life. Because that makes sense.

You couldn't cast party buffs outside of combat, but for example a lot of the personal buffs had minimal casting time and delay afterwards. You could queue and cast like 5 of them in less than 2 seconds.

[Juggernaught]

Prebuffing is one of the main reasons why the old me can't get into PF. BG/NwN had it too but it is too mundane for todays standards. Solasta don't introduce extremely challenging encounters as the originals had.. like liches and dragons(even on hard difficulty). You can trivialize everything in Solasta with Spirit Guardians. Cast it on your Pala and Cleric and relax.
If I recall right DA:O had the best system about party buffs and auras.

[Lhasa]

I really do dislike the concentration system as well. I think an improved or altogether different system would be better.

Originally posted by Indure:

9/10 times there is a best spell that will always take your concentration slot and all the other spells might as well not even be equipped...

My biggest problem with 5e's concentration system is how poorly balanced duration spells are. They don't seem to take into account that they compete with each other and should be balanced accordingly.

This is the most pertinent sentiment I see in this thread. If 5e wants the concentration mechanic, the spell list needs to reflect this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the spell list and the effects of each spell have been pretty much the same throughout the editions, right? My knowledge includes only 2nd edition from back then.

That said, here's an example of how I found the concentration system kiiiinda works? =P

My 4th level wizard (greenmage) has access to 1st and 2nd level spells. Right now I've had him learn 5 first level spells that all require concentration, but I find them useful and have utilized all of them. Animal friendship is one I like for him because hey, it's charm beast. It's situational, but when that situation comes up, it's powerful. I also take Faerie Fire, Grease and Fog Cloud. All three of these need concentration. Often I will use Grease as an enemy approaches to hinder their advance, and switch to Faerie Fire as they close when being able to hit becomes more important. Fog cloud has saved me during "surprise" attacks, but also in normal engagements when I'd rather be in a more beneficial position; using the cover of fog, I avoid taking hits while setting up and maneuvering. And my final spell is Jump, which I want handy for exploration mostly.

So sometimes these are situational decisions. And evaluating whether you want your mage to focus on protecting himself with Barkskin or aiding the party's offense with Faerie Fire is a tradeoff that I feel grows the style of the character. I dunno. I don't like it and it feels limiting; it could be a much better system. But as others have said, giving a mage unlimited (or enhanced) concentration feels like it would break the current system.

[AzureTheGamerKobold]

Concentration is a 5e staple... and yes it pretty much sucks, and i know plenty of people will rally to the defense of it but at the end of the day its designed to HAMPER casters. Now instead of being able to throw a hold person, a shield of faith, and a bless on my party i have to CHOOSE between what i want to do because i cant do them all. Worse it KILLS combos, gone are the days of setting up a spell combination for fun effects such as mind fog and dominate you have to CHOOSE which one and you ONLY get one.

But that's not the devs fault....the entire game is BALANCED around concentration... and would likely require a big overhaul to fix it. So i'd suggest Kingmaker or, Wrath of the Righteous if you want more freedom with your casting.

[Ommamar]

Originally posted by AzureTheGamerKobold:

Concentration is a 5e staple... and yes it pretty much sucks, and i know plenty of people will rally to the defense of it but at the end of the day its designed to HAMPER casters. Now instead of being able to throw a hold person, a shield of faith, and a bless on my party i have to CHOOSE between what i want to do because i cant do them all. Worse it KILLS combos, gone are the days of setting up a spell combination for fun effects such as mind fog and dominate you have to CHOOSE which one and you ONLY get one.

But that's not the devs fault....the entire game is BALANCED around concentration... and would likely require a big overhaul to fix it. So i'd suggest Kingmaker or, Wrath of the Righteous if you want more freedom with your casting.

The last PnP group I played with that was running 5E the dungeon master had a rule where you had to announce the round before you where going to change your concentration spell. Then at the beginning of the next round you had to make a skill roll based with a attribute modifier to see if you successfully changed concentration. It really dragged the game pacing down, while not the only reason I moved on it was definitely a contributor.

[Babarigo]

One of the things I would like the most would be a way to tweak the concentration mechanic. Allowing to adjust how many concentration spells can be active at the same time would really help. I think that being able to have 2 concentration spells at the same time would really help.
In my Ruins of Ilthimar campaign there are countless of concentration spells that I have used once.

With my sorceress, the only defensive concentration spell I have ever casted was invisiblity when I was really caught out of position. Having a defensive concentration spell active would have completely destroyed the offensive potential of my caster.
For instance, I could have casted blur to be harder to target or fly to become untoucheable by melee units but the opportunity cost would have been massive.
Those spells compete with stuff like Hypnothic Pattern, a spell with a large AoE that makes the affected creatures basically inoffensive for 10 rounds.
At level 4 of magic I get Fire Wall, a spell that will kill deal massive amounts of damage.
Why would I ever cast stuff like Stinking Cloud or Sleet Storm or even leval 4 spells like Confusion or Banishment?
You have to fight against 4 elementals. Should you cast Banishment, a single target spell that will become mostly useless if your concentration is broken? Or should you just cast Hypnotic Pattenr on the 4 elementals and kill them one by one?
The sad thing is that some concentration spells wouldn't even be good without concentration. I don't think I would ever waste a Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern slot to cast a Sleet Storm or a Fire Wall slot for a Phantasmal Killer.
Spells like Fog Cloud or even Darkness will never be worth the concentration slot (unless blind fighting is implemented) as soon as you get level 3 spells. Same thing for spells like Magic Weapon. This spell will never generate as much value as Fear, Slow or Confusion, let alone the best concentration spells.

I know that Tactical Adventures is only implenting the game as it works in the PnP but there are differences between them. You have much more spells to choose in the PnP so you have more variety. In Solasta, the spell selection is much more limited. If you add the fact that you can have only one concentration spell runing at any given time you end up casting most of the time the same spells.

Of every crpg or tactical rpg I have played, this one is the one where the caster had the most limited gameplay. The spell list looks good at a first glance but when you combine the fact that many damage spells are mediocre at best (burning hands or Icestorm) compared to an upcasted or not fireball and that you can only have a single concentration spell runing at the same time you end up with a small variety of spells, not because the game lacks of them, but because it has implemented a very restrictive game mechanic.
I personnally disliked pre buffing, it was tedious and always the optimal choices so I'm glad it's gone. But the nerfhammer that is the concentration mechanic wasn't needed.
WotC just had to create a special category that would contain all the strong buffing spells.
Then they could have added a rule that prevents you from having more than one buffing spells active. For instance, you had casted haste on your Paladin and now you want to cast haste on your Rogue. You cast improved invisibility and the haste on the Paladin is gone.
With this, prebuffing would have been as limited as it is in 5e.

I understand that WotC don't want to the casters to be OP compared to the martials but it's their fault if they don't make the latter better.
As long a Fighter gameplay is limited to "I swing my sword 3 times on the bad guy" they aren't going to be competitive with the Wizards unless your nerf them with mechanics like concentration.
They should have generalized the battle maneuvers game mechanic on every martial class like they were leaning towards at some point in the development.
The gameplay difference between a fighter in 3.5e pr 5e compared to what would be a fighter equivalent in Divinity Original SIn 1 for instance, is staggering.
I might be going off topic but I think the refusal by WotC of adding real mechanics to martials that would have closed the gap between them and casters is the reason why they had to go the other way, which is to lower casters closer to the martials levels (even though casters are still very strong).
Pure martials will never compete with casters if they are not given real features that enable them to have more gameplay choices than "I swing my big sword on enemy dude 1" or "I swing my big sword on enemy dude 2".