Got to the end, and it's terrible

[Geekoid]

Other creature save the day, not the hero's. This is game design 101 stuff. Don't take the the accomplishment from the hero's. Like Being in a D&D game and the GMs favorite NPC saves the day. It's crap.
The end battle just go for so many rounds that ends in a cut scene. Not you winnig, just a non-sense cut scene of your character getting a last blow. Which reminds me, the end 25% of the game is padded with so many cut scene, it's ridiculous.

[Severian]

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

The party were there as an accessory to the DM's plot. Remove them from the equation and just about anyone else who isn't as brain-dead as the council could do it.

That, to me is Solasta's story telling in a nut-shell. Everything must bow to King Plot.
Internal logical consistency, personal motivations, player agency, characters you can care about, or at least believe in - the game shows zero consideration for any of those, only to advance a straightforward and generic plot in as uninventive and railroaded a way as I have ever seen.

[Digihuman]

Severian님이 먼저 게시:

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

The party were there as an accessory to the DM's plot. Remove them from the equation and just about anyone else who isn't as brain-dead as the council could do it.

That, to me is Solasta's story telling in a nut-shell. Everything must bow to King Plot.
Internal logical consistency, personal motivations, player agency, characters you can care about, or at least believe in - the game shows zero consideration for any of those, only to advance a straightforward and generic plot in as uninventive and railroaded a way as I have ever seen.

I think the bit I found the most railroady was the green dragon stuff. I'm chastised for stealing when the door wouldn't open UNLESS I stole. So I'm forced to steal, and then punished for it.

[Indure]

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

Indure님이 먼저 게시:

I agree with you, except for the players' role in the game and the end. Without our party they would never of proved Sorraks exists, or found the crown, nor would they have the attunement needed to find the magister's tooth. Even at the end the Sorraks would have overrun the dragons and opened the rift without the characters holding the line. Without the player's involvement it would have just been ... surprise the rift is open and the world is doomed. The end cinematic made it clear that our role was to permanently seal the rift, while leaving it open for a sequel to eliminate the remaining Sorraks still in Solasta.

I strongly disagree. It seemed to me that everyone knew what Soraks were and there were members of the council who were already sure they existed. If anything, that whole leg of the game was its own problem. Why do we need to bring back a head for them to believe it when it was established in the same scene that an insanely large number of scouting parties kept getting attacked and wiped out? It's just incompetence.
The party ultimately wasn't necessary, anyone could have done it. And what did it even change in the end? Nothing! They knew Soraks existed, they knew Soraks could do various things based on the legends, and then did absolutely nothing. Even the guy who warned us that they could shapeshift just casually goes and resurrected a bunch without thinking.

The party were there as an accessory to the DM's plot. Remove them from the equation and just about anyone else who isn't as brain-dead as the council could do it.

Isn't that the point of a D&D adventure though, a group of nobodies/mercenaries saving the world. Not the trope of being the chosen one, whom was blessed with a special power they didn't earn, but makes them the ONLY one who can save the world.

The fact of the matter is that without your party the crown wouldn't have been found and the Sorraks would have gotten it. This would have lead them to the gems and they would have opened the rift without anyone being the wiser, thus ending the world.

Also I understand your point of being railroaded into giving the crown to the council, but even if this was reality what would be your play in the situation? The council (a group of the most influential and powerful clans in the world) which you work for demanded you to give up the crown. If you did not they would charge you with treason or as Sorrak spies. What are you going to do, kill them and fight your way out of the city killing guards and civilians alike? How would you complete the main quest, you have no idea where the final 2 gems were and they were hidden via magic? Of course, the story could be easily written to provided you with the info you need, but on face value disobeying the council would be as stupid of a decision as giving them the crown.

[Severian]

Indure님이 먼저 게시:

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

I strongly disagree. It seemed to me that everyone knew what Soraks were and there were members of the council who were already sure they existed. If anything, that whole leg of the game was its own problem. Why do we need to bring back a head for them to believe it when it was established in the same scene that an insanely large number of scouting parties kept getting attacked and wiped out? It's just incompetence.
The party ultimately wasn't necessary, anyone could have done it. And what did it even change in the end? Nothing! They knew Soraks existed, they knew Soraks could do various things based on the legends, and then did absolutely nothing. Even the guy who warned us that they could shapeshift just casually goes and resurrected a bunch without thinking.

The party were there as an accessory to the DM's plot. Remove them from the equation and just about anyone else who isn't as brain-dead as the council could do it.

Isn't that the point of a D&D adventure though, a group of nobodies/mercenaries saving the world. Not the trope of being the chosen one, whom was blessed with a special power they didn't earn, but makes them the ONLY one who can save the world.

The fact of the matter is that without your party the crown wouldn't have been found and the Sorraks would have gotten it. This would have lead them to the gems and they would have opened the rift without anyone being the wiser, thus ending the world.

Also I understand your point of being railroaded into giving the crown to the council, but even if this was reality what would be your play in the situation? The council (a group of the most influential and powerful clans in the world) which you work for demanded you to give up the crown. If you did not they would charge you with treason or as Sorrak spies. What are you going to do, kill them and fight your way out of the city killing guards and civilians alike? How would you complete the main quest, you have no idea where the final 2 gems were and they were hidden via magic? Of course, the story could be easily written to provided you with the info you need, but on face value disobeying the council would be as stupid of a decision as giving them the crown.

The bit that got ME about giving up the crown - besides, of course, the council being a bunch of unlikable, bumbling incompetents - was how 1.) we were earlier officially declared part of the council, and yet were not allowed a vote, and 2.) how giving up the crown meant either the death of the wearer, or nothing at all, depending on how it suited the narrator.
Solasta's writer(s) are lucky they're writing for video games, because this novel would never have been published.

[Digihuman]

Indure님이 먼저 게시:

Also I understand your point of being railroaded into giving the crown to the council, but even if this was reality what would be your play in the situation? The council (a group of the most influential and powerful clans in the world) which you work for demanded you to give up the crown. If you did not they would charge you with treason or as Sorrak spies. What are you going to do, kill them and fight your way out of the city killing guards and civilians alike? How would you complete the main quest, you have no idea where the final 2 gems were and they were hidden via magic? Of course, the story could be easily written to provided you with the info you need, but on face value disobeying the council would be as stupid of a decision as giving them the crown.

What would be my play? Refuse to hand it over. Fight, and run if necessary. You can get a lot of story potential from that alone. The Soraks still won't have the crown and the party can reconsider how to best look for the missing gems. Raiding Soraks, and so on.
It's not like everyone on the council was in agreement, and the Sorak infiltrators causing a war would make the party much less of an urgent issue than said war.

You can guarantee that the Princess would be interested in our well being, not as council member but as head of state (and more personally as Master).

In my case, my party includes a Spy, who would be aware of some of the secret passages. Sewers and the like. My party is also particularly built for stealth and tanking, so fighting would be an acceptable option as well if needed. Surespell was also clearly on our side despite us being otherwise neutral towards the Arcaneum, meaning we could have relied on his help.


A DM in a real D&D game would have to consider these possible reactions if and when they happen, because the position of "surrender the crown because we say so" is ridiculous.

It's not like that's even a bad plot idea - the players becoming fugitives while fighting a greater evil is a perfectly fine plot beat and one I would respect as an option. Hell, we could have just decided to say we are withdrawing from the council at that moment, and then if they tried to forcibly take the crown - our property - they would be in the wrong in the first place in every respect.

Even dumber is the fact that the plot magically changed the rules of the crown at that point. Before then, being separated from the crown would kill you. Yet now all of a sudden you're fine. Heck, after the crown was taken, ALL of my party began talking as if they were the ones attuned to it, even though only the ranger had been.

[Aldain]

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

7) What the ♥♥♥♥? Dragons? Coming out of nowhere to steal the fight? And on top of that they aren't even dragons we've met. We meet a red, and a blue, and kill a green one. But where did this gold and black one come from? This might mean more if we ACTUALLY MET THEM FIRST. Plus they just steal all my kills. If these nameless dragons could show up and wipe out the Soraks, why was my party even necessary?

The gold dragon is the dragon we met in the Master's Tower, remember where we fought Razan?

It also is heavily implied that the Black Dragon is the Necromancy Gem master if you manage to talk him down instead of killing him.

I agree with everything else more or less, but I'd like to outline that of the dragons we meet those two do exist (I have no idea where anyone met a red dragon though).

[Digihuman]

Aldain님이 먼저 게시:

The gold dragon is the dragon we met in the Master's Tower, remember where we fought Razan?

It also is heavily implied that the Black Dragon is the Necromancy Gem master if you manage to talk him down instead of killing him.

I agree with everything else more or less, but I'd like to outline that of the dragons we meet those two do exist (I have no idea where anyone met a red dragon though).

See, that's just not clearly presented at all. I didn't recall the master of the Master's Tower being the gold dragon. I thought she was a different colour. The necromancer one just comes out of left field considering it's pure luck if you spare him or not. And either way, they don't get given an introduction, don't say hello, and their initiative order name is just "Black Dragon" and "Gold Dragon", which naturally makes them seem like generics instead of important NPCs.

If they showed up in human form first, I might be more forgiving - or even just had dialogue to help you make the connection. Not that I get why the necromancer would even come to help anyway when he's so paranoid that TRYING to talk him down will still make him hostile unless you're lucky.

[Severian]

The Black Dragon is definitely the Necromancy Master, Madracht.
At one point, long after the player has got it, our brilliant dramatis personae manage to be surprised by the revelation that, yes, indeed, all masters were dragons - smh - but even more of a definitive proof of Madrachts identity is his journal.
You only get it when you kill him, which is waaay easier than it has any right to be, but it is written in draconic (which you can read using either Comprehend Languages or Tongues), and he refers to himself as "this old wurm", or something similar.

[Indure]

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

Aldain님이 먼저 게시:

The gold dragon is the dragon we met in the Master's Tower, remember where we fought Razan?

It also is heavily implied that the Black Dragon is the Necromancy Gem master if you manage to talk him down instead of killing him.

I agree with everything else more or less, but I'd like to outline that of the dragons we meet those two do exist (I have no idea where anyone met a red dragon though).

See, that's just not clearly presented at all. I didn't recall the master of the Master's Tower being the gold dragon. I thought she was a different colour. The necromancer one just comes out of left field considering it's pure luck if you spare him or not. And either way, they don't get given an introduction, don't say hello, and their initiative order name is just "Black Dragon" and "Gold Dragon", which naturally makes them seem like generics instead of important NPCs.

If they showed up in human form first, I might be more forgiving - or even just had dialogue to help you make the connection. Not that I get why the necromancer would even come to help anyway when he's so paranoid that TRYING to talk him down will still make him hostile unless you're lucky.

The gold dragon tells you when you first meet her that she needs to save her energy for one last flight. Seemed very obvious to me that she would show back up in the end. The necromancer probably had the same premonition or calling. I killed him in my game so he didn't show up in my game, but it was immediately obvious to me that since every gem holder was a dragon that the one who I spared in my game was the only one to show up at the end.

[Digihuman]

Indure님이 먼저 게시:

The gold dragon tells you when you first meet her that she needs to save her energy for one last flight. Seemed very obvious to me that she would show back up in the end. The necromancer probably had the same premonition or calling. I killed him in my game so he didn't show up in my game, but it was immediately obvious to me that since every gem holder was a dragon that the one who I spared in my game was the only one to show up at the end.

Yeah, I know, I was expecting her. But I honestly forgot what colour she was and so when two dragons show up with no introduction I wound up thinking they were just generics instead of having anything to do with the master of the tower (as one can tell by my earlier post, it's been so long since that part of the story that in retrospect I thought she was red).

Of course, the fact that the ones you spare show up in battle still...doesn't feel right, if only because the enemies are so weak that they just steal all the kills.

[Aldain]

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

Of course, the fact that the ones you spare show up in battle still...doesn't feel right, if only because the enemies are so weak that they just steal all the kills.

This wouldn't have been a problem imo if it had been a 3 stage fight instead of a 2 stage one.

The first stage looks harrowing but suddenly the dragon(s) come to your aid, they then die and you have to hold the line without them, then the Magister seals the gate but not before a titanic-sized Sorak gets through up for the final phase, the Magister uses the last of the crown's power to heal your party and you fight the last battle against the boss Sorak.

That would have made that first phase better imo.

[Digihuman]

Aldain님이 먼저 게시:

This wouldn't have been a problem imo if it had been a 3 stage fight instead of a 2 stage one.

The first stage looks harrowing but suddenly the dragon(s) come to your aid, they then die and you have to hold the line without them, then the Magister seals the gate but not before a titanic-sized Sorak gets through up for the final phase, the Magister uses the last of the crown's power to heal your party and you fight the last battle against the boss Sorak.

That would have made that first phase better imo.

Hell yeah, now that would make the ending a lot more satisfying. Especially since you'll have depleted resources getting there. One final challenge.

Adding something to the end where the party is actually acknowledged would help too.

[Aldain]

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

Adding something to the end where the party is actually acknowledged would help too.

A post credits scene of the party getting back to the same tavern with a cry of "Barkeep, a round of donkey piss for everyone!" and a few comments from the handful of characters we met would have more than sufficed in my eyes.

[Frostfeather]

Aldain님이 먼저 게시:

Digihuman님이 먼저 게시:

Of course, the fact that the ones you spare show up in battle still...doesn't feel right, if only because the enemies are so weak that they just steal all the kills.

This wouldn't have been a problem imo if it had been a 3 stage fight instead of a 2 stage one.

The first stage looks harrowing but suddenly the dragon(s) come to your aid, they then die and you have to hold the line without them, then the Magister seals the gate but not before a titanic-sized Sorak gets through up for the final phase, the Magister uses the last of the crown's power to heal your party and you fight the last battle against the boss Sorak.

That would have made that first phase better imo.

Wait, there was supposed to be a boss Sorak? I played the final battle after the update where they "forgot to add something big to the final battle" and there was still no boss.

I had saved all my resources and everything, too, lol. But the game just ended in the middle of small Soraks running into my Walls of Fire and dying repeatedly.

[Aldain]

night4님이 먼저 게시:

Wait, there was supposed to be a boss Sorak? I played the final battle after the update where they "forgot to add something big to the final battle" and there was still no boss.

I had saved all my resources and everything, too, lol. But the game just ended in the middle of small Soraks running into my Walls of Fire and dying repeatedly.

I'm not sure what that "something big" was, you'd have to ask somebody who cleared it before that patch dropped.

But as of about a week ago it just ends with a cutscene after the "hold the line" segment, and since that cutscene goes to the credits right afterward I can only imagine that what might have been missing was the end scene or something.

What I posted there was a hypothetical as to what would have made the anti-climax of the first phase acceptable.