why are the Feats different from 5e

[wei270]

this game gone though alot of trouble to follow the rules of 5e to the best it can but why completely change the feats that is the part the troubles me.

[theshadowcult]

Originally posted by tazman1:

no the only habbits being formed are people intentionally misreading what I post and taking it out of context. I never said you could chain more then the 2 attacks around. I said the fact that you will take enemy down bonus action you take enemy 2 down wash rinse repeat. Meaning this pattern will be every turn.

The monk would use most of his attacks to do what the fighter does in one. Oh and reread stunning strike and tell me how its comparable to an ability without a save again.

I have also shown my point using the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ RULES AS WRITTEN IN THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ PHB, that you all say are not there. I have even given the pages the paragraphs but nope because you all seem to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ think that an OPTIONAL RULE IS MANDATORY when I have proven exactly why its broken.
Again using the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ rules of the PHB. little blue box in the bottom corner under what you can do in concurrence with your action. I even showed how I intentionally nerfed a fighter into being silly to show how OP 1 feat was. Again little blue box of actions you can take while taking your action.

Pretty sure in most if not all the replies you got, no one said feats were mandatory. I know i for one was simply debating that they are broken in any way. Is there some strong combos? Sure, does any of that matter when wizards exist in the game? Narp...

[Cartesian Duelist]

Originally posted by tazman1:

I said the fact that you will take enemy down bonus action you take enemy 2 down wash rinse repeat. Meaning this pattern will be every turn.
The monk would use most of his attacks to do what the fighter does in one.

I just want you to realize that you're saying 39 points of damage is enough to kill a CR5 creature.

In order to get the extra attack as a bonus, the fighter has to either crit or reduce his target to 0. A regular attack from a 5th level fighter with 20 STR and a greatsword is max 27 damage (2d6(12)+15). A crit from the same fighter is max 39 damage (4d5(24)+15).

Originally posted by tazman1:

because you all seem to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ think that an OPTIONAL RULE IS MANDATORY

Nobody has said this.

[tazman1]

that is true shadowcult you never said they were mandatory however if you look at several others posts they were saying exactly that. And yes I will admit to getting a little over heated in some of my responses, however if you go back through the entire thread you will see that started only after several flat out attacks on my character.

It is sad how a rather simple and interesting debate on the merits of whether or not feats are broken got so side railed by personal attacks and insults.

[tazman1]

Originally posted by Cartesian Duelist:

Originally posted by tazman1:

I said the fact that you will take enemy down bonus action you take enemy 2 down wash rinse repeat. Meaning this pattern will be every turn.
The monk would use most of his attacks to do what the fighter does in one.

I just want you to realize that you're saying 39 points of damage is enough to kill a CR5 creature.

In order to get the extra attack as a bonus, the fighter has to either crit or reduce his target to 0. A regular attack from a 5th level fighter with 20 STR and a greatsword is max 27 damage (2d6(12)+15). A crit from the same fighter is max 39 damage (4d5(24)+15).

Originally posted by tazman1:

because you all seem to ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ think that an OPTIONAL RULE IS MANDATORY

Nobody has said this.

And once again someone misreads something to fit their agenda otherwise you would of noticed that I had been talking about level 1 characters taking on CR1 creatures in that post.

[Cartesian Duelist]

Originally posted by tazman1:

And once again someone misreads something to fit their agenda otherwise you would of noticed that I had been talking about level 1 characters taking on CR1 creatures in that post.

There go the goalposts...

If you're complaining that a first level character can take out a CR1 enemy in one round, well... I don't even know what to say to that...

[tazman1]

no that is not what the issue is its that a level 1 character without expending resources can take 2 Cr1 creatures in a turn. There is no race class combo without feats that can pull that stunt.

[THAC0]

Originally posted by They1AboveAl1:

They have limited licences on the 5.1e rule set.

[theshadowcult]

Originally posted by tazman1:

no that is not what the issue is its that a level 1 character without expending resources can take 2 Cr1 creatures in a turn. There is no race class combo without feats that can pull that stunt.

While it's true that IF a variant human took the feat at first level they COULD kill two enemies in a single turn. if they were actually using the feat, because of the -5 to attack, they would have less than a 50% chance to even hit the first creature, let alone a second less than 50% chance to hit the 2nd creature. None of this is broken. Hell half the cr1 creatures could one hit a wizard or rogue themselves, and thats without feats.

Not to mention that ANY fighter with a two handed weaopn can one hit a cr1 creature as well. PLUS if they were dual wielding and had a mod of 4, they could STILL one hit two separate creatures in one turn. So could a rogue, or barbarian.

[Digihuman]

Originally posted by tazman1:

no that is not what the issue is its that a level 1 character without expending resources can take 2 Cr1 creatures in a turn. There is no race class combo without feats that can pull that stunt.

You REALLY do not know what you are talking about, at all.
CR 1 creatures are very bulky, considering. The CR system starts at CR 1/4 and CR is not equivalent to level.

Shall we use some official examples?
Copper Dragon Wyrmling, CR 1, 22 HP on average (but can have as many as 36). It's not impossible for a level 1 fighter with Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter to kill an average HP one in one hit, but that'd entail the -5 penalty to hit (which is big) and rolling high on the damage dice. A stronger copper wyrmling, on the other hand, can't be killed even if we took GWM or Sharpshooter into account.
Additionally, it can do 9 or 18 damage on its turn with its breath, or 7 with its bite. This means, with much better accuracy than a feat-using fighter, it can reliably kill the level 1 fighter in 2 hits - or 1 hit if the fighter fails a save against the breath weapon.
(Sidenote: Its AC is 16, meaning with STR 20, afighter using GWM would have 1d20 + 2 to hit. Meaning a 14 minimum on the d20. Very unfavourable odds to hit).
In this case, the Dragon and Fighter BOTH have a chance of taking each other down, but the dragon has a clear advantage.

Harpy, CR 1, 38 HP, maximum possible hp 63. This one cannot possibly be killed by a level 1 fighter alone even with feats. At best, a level 1 fighter with GWM with 20 in STR can do 1d12 + 5 + 10 damage IF it hits. That's 27 damage maximum. It could seriously hurt the Harpy, if the character were lucky enough to hit with a -5 penalty and lucky enough to roll max damage on 1/12 odds, but realistically that won't happen. Then what can the Harpy do in response? 2 attacks, for 2d4+1 and 1d4+1 damage. Totalling an average of 9, but potentially as much as 14 which would be enough to knock out a fighter at level 1 with 18 or less constitution.
So in this case, the Harpy has the potential to down the fighter in one round, but the fighter does not.

Fire Snake, CR 1, 22 HP, maximum possible 40. Again this one definitely has the CHANCE of being one hit killed by a GWM fighter. But it still would require (assuming 20 STR) a 12 on the d20. So it's still below 50% accuracy to hit. Meanwhile the Fire Snake has 2 attacks which do an average of 12 damage a round, and a maximum of 22.
Once again, the monster has the advantage over the level 1 fighter.

The long and short of this is as follows;
Your scenario is not impossible. But given that Great Weapon Master (Which seems to have become the only feat you now care about complaining about) only activates a second attack on a CRITICAL HIT, which is a 5% chance, it's a moot point - which is why I didn't factor in critical damage in my analysis above. 95% of the time you're going to hit normally (or miss) and therefore the matchups have been depicted for that.

If, in your scenario, we pit a level 1 fighter with Great Weapon Master against 2 Copper Dragon Wyrmlings, that fighter will have, at most, 15 hit points. If either dragon goes higher than him in the initiative, he might die first, depending on a dex save and whether the DM is using the average damage or not.
Then if he attacks, he has a 95% chance of a non-critical, which means requiring a 14 or higher (assuming 20 STR) to even hit one dragon if he wants that +10 damage. He will then be unable to kill the second dragon, who will get its turn and potentially kill him.
There is a 5% chance he will get a critical hit, in which case he will do 2d12 + 15 damage with the feat to one of them. Minimum 17 (not enough to kill an average) maximum 39 (enough to kill even a max-hp one). But then his second attack is still reliant on the same stats I already gave.

I hope this helps you understand the issue with your problem here.

As an aside, to your last remark "there is no race class combo that can pull off that stunt", I should point out that there are ONLY 2 ways to get a feat at level 1 in 5e.
Be a Variant Human, or use the Lineage system from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
That's it. So all your complaining about the feat's potential at level 1 is even dumber when it only applies to 1 race, which is a variant from the standard, and 1 custom race creation system, which a lot of people don't allow anyway.

EDIT: Oh silly me, I forgot something, too.
A level 1 fighter can't have 20 STR if it's a variant human. Because the highest possible in any stat a variant human can have, assuming you rolled well on character creation, is 19. A Custom Lineage could theoretically have 20 though.
So A variant human fighter in the scenarios above actually has an even harsher time.

[Something completely different]

Tazman, at this point you're pretty much driving and getting a message that someone is driving against the traffic on the road you are on at which you respond to with:

'One person driving against the traffic? Everyone is!!'

People are not misreading you, we just don't agree with you and getting frustrated and cussing is NOT going to change that.
It's nice that you have a certain style of DM'ing but so do we. I have run multiple campaigns and with some mild managing feats are not broken whatsoever.
There's imo maybe 3 or 4 feats you have to mind and then only in certain combinations with other feats and class features.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by tazman1:

ok let me try this again. Lets look at great weapon master and crossbow expert.

Ok now lets look at the monk wait a second so these feats allow you to basically become a monk because you can use your bonus action to make an extra attack at your full damage potential.

So basically 2 feats that turn a character into a monk in damage potential

FEATS have never been balanced for game play hence why they are OPTIONAL RULES

You might want to see my first 2 posts because this has gotten way off track by people attacking me for pointing out that in this game Feats are weak enough that the decision is indeed worth thinking off. In P&P you will always be under powered compared to a player who does.

I have gone to great lengths attempting to explain this to people to the fact where I even nerfed a theoretical fighter to prove how ridiculous it can be that I then had to defend because no one was willing to read a small little box that says what you can do as part of your action.

And in the Players Handbook it says flat out in the most recent editions that they are optional and in all other books the first paragraph in the feats section says flat out if your DM allows feats.

Everyone else has been saying that you must use feats or you are a ♥♥♥♥ DM in fact they said that exact words to someone earlier.

Edit: Ok lets take a crossbow expert or great weapon fighter variant human.
compare that to a non variant human monk at level 1 (this will continue throughout every level). so a variant human basically makes a monk weak

Wow you seem to constantly ignore the part where you need to bring a creature down to 0 HP or crit with a 20 to attack with a bonus action on GWM. You don't always get that. The rogue or wizard can steal the kill from you so you will not get the bonus action attack if they do.

[Digihuman]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Wow you seem to constantly ignore the part where you need to bring a creature down to 0 HP or crit with a 20 to attack with a bonus action on GWM. You don't always get that. The rogue or wizard can steal the kill from you so you will not get the bonus action attack if they do.

It's not even an "or" - you only get the bonus attack if you Crit AND reduce the opponent to 0. Which was why I had to do my lengthy explanation crunching the numbers to show why that's exceptionally unlikely given the level 1 v CR 1 scenario.

[bbii]

Originally posted by tazman1:

no that is not what the issue is its that a level 1 character without expending resources can take 2 Cr1 creatures in a turn. There is no race class combo without feats that can pull that stunt.

OK. To try and stop this (he says, knowing it won't)
There are lots of broken things in 5e. Some people think more than half of the races having Darkvision breaks the game as now the DM would have to take that into account. This is another discussion though.

For 1st level feats it is another story. You're talking an optional rule on top of an optional rule. A good DM should probably limit what feats they allow a first level character to take. Limit it to the character building ones. I am sure you won't say a character who takes Linguist at level 1 is breaking the game.

The simple thing is this is not about fact but of opinion. If you think something breaks the game in your campaign as DM then don't allow it. This is not just feats. A DM may not allow certain races. They could say it is a low-magic campaign and limit spells. As long as the DM is consistent. No fair allowing/disallowing something and going back on your word after or playing favorites.

[tazman1]

bbii your argument was already made in an earlier post about feats being optional and the reason why and the person that posted that(was not me) was called a ♥♥♥♥ DM that had no knowledge of how to run a game because he wouldn't kowtow to the players wants

[tazman1]

Originally posted by Digihuman:

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Wow you seem to constantly ignore the part where you need to bring a creature down to 0 HP or crit with a 20 to attack with a bonus action on GWM. You don't always get that. The rogue or wizard can steal the kill from you so you will not get the bonus action attack if they do.

It's not even an "or" - you only get the bonus attack if you Crit AND reduce the opponent to 0. Which was why I had to do my lengthy explanation crunching the numbers to show why that's exceptionally unlikely given the level 1 v CR 1 scenario.

actually showed where it is possible for a GWM with the right feat to do exactly that.

And it is indeed an either or thing if you actually read the feat.