Legendary Actions were a bad idea in 5e. They're a bad idea now.

[claiminglight]

They were one of my major reasons for staying away from 5e as a tabletop game, and they remain so now.

The conceit of D&D is that, even if you have magic and monster with wonderous and terrible abilities, they're bound by the same rules of internal logic and physics. If an enemy wizard can cast a spell, you can learn that spell. If an enemy who can't fly falls, they take X amount of damage when they land. And so on.

Legendary actions are a straight up violation of the central logic of the game- that being "We're all moving at the same time, the turns are just there to keep track of it all". But if my fighter hits the Boss on his turn, then the Boss uses a legendary action and teleports next to my paladin, and my paladin his the boss on his turn, then the Boss was literally in two places at the same time.

While we're at it, if a creature can take turns out of order when they feel like it, why not just change other parts of the central ruleset the players and the game agreed to? Why not have monsters sometimes not have hit points as a concept, or sometimes have no ability scores at all, or have 9 of them with names chosen at random from a dictionary?

Ugh. I hate legendary actions. I'm convinced somebody thought they were a "rule of cool" idea, they pooped it out in a design meeting and nobody thought too hard about since.

[claiminglight]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by claiminglight:

The question was "To everyone, consider this idea in good faith: do you not see a difference between a fire-breathing move and an ability that lets you move onto the grid-lines between spaces?"

and i answered you, there is no ability that lets you move onto the grid lines between spaces.

fire breathing used to have a limit to its use, legendary actions are things you can only use in a limited number as well, they are fundamentally a refinement of an old system, with a new name.

now explain what this "very fabric" you deem so important is, as you have avoided it 3 times now.

That's not an answer. I asked if there was a difference. You said "there isn't one of those".
You're not arguing in good faith. So I'm out on your part of the exchange. :)

[zero]

Originally posted by BHEscaper:

I think legendary action need some in-game lore explanation. Such as a powerful mage can freeze the time thus created the legendary action.

"A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. It can take special actions outside its turn, and it might exert magical influence for miles around."

creatures of great importance are legendary creatures, dragons are common example of this, its because they stand out above the rest in same way, a Named creature is a similar state, its a method to make unique creatures that are stronger then their peers to show there strength through something beyond minions.

[claiminglight]

Originally posted by BHEscaper:

I think legendary action need some in-game lore explanation. Such as a powerful mage can freeze the time thus created the legendary action.

That alone wouldn't be enough for me, but it's absolutely the right line of thinking, I believe. Spells like Time Stop from older editions sort of do exactly that.

[zero]

Originally posted by claiminglight:

Originally posted by zero:

and i answered you, there is no ability that lets you move onto the grid lines between spaces.

fire breathing used to have a limit to its use, legendary actions are things you can only use in a limited number as well, they are fundamentally a refinement of an old system, with a new name.

now explain what this "very fabric" you deem so important is, as you have avoided it 3 times now.

That's not an answer. I asked if there was a difference. You said "there isn't one of those".
You're not arguing in good faith. So I'm out on your part of the exchange. :)

the irony of saying im aruging in bad faith when you are using 2 made up things of "frabric of D&D" and "in between spaceS" is peak irony, be better then that.

compare it to what it is, legendary actions are ultimately the refreshable actions of strong creatures from older editions.

[Kasa]

@claiminglight

You have so far failed to make a point let alone prove one yet though, so what faith based buy in is there.

Please state your point very clearly and very simply, what are you trying to say?
Don't answer me with a question, just straight out say very cleanly very simply, what is your point.

[claiminglight]

Originally posted by Kasa:

Ya, it really does. I can make a random post on a random website too, doesn't mean it's correct, creditable or important.

At the risk of being "that guy", what you're doing is making an appeal to popularity. I pointed out the first link I saw as proof that I'm not the only person who has these concerns. You're not happy with it because it didn't go viral.

[BHEscaper]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by BHEscaper:

I think legendary action need some in-game lore explanation. Such as a powerful mage can freeze the time thus created the legendary action.

"A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. It can take special actions outside its turn, and it might exert magical influence for miles around."

creatures of great importance are legendary creatures, dragons are common example of this, its because they stand out above the rest in same way, a Named creature is a similar state, its a method to make unique creatures that are stronger then their peers to show there strength through something beyond minions.

Yes. But not every dragon have legendary action right? We need in-game explanation why this dragon is so different.

[Kasa]

Originally posted by claiminglight:

Originally posted by Kasa:

Ya, it really does. I can make a random post on a random website too, doesn't mean it's correct, creditable or important.

At the risk of being "that guy", what you're doing is making an appeal to popularity. I pointed out the first link I saw as proof that I'm not the only person who has these concerns. You're not happy with it because it didn't go viral.

You just linked me to 1 person on reddit, if you feel better I can admit to there being 2 people who don't like legendary actions... so ok? So what?

Point please.

[Kasa]

Originally posted by BHEscaper:

Originally posted by zero:

"A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. It can take special actions outside its turn, and it might exert magical influence for miles around."

creatures of great importance are legendary creatures, dragons are common example of this, its because they stand out above the rest in same way, a Named creature is a similar state, its a method to make unique creatures that are stronger then their peers to show there strength through something beyond minions.

Yes. But not every dragon have legendary action right? We need in-game explanation why this dragon is so different.

Simple because they were not legendary dragons.
You don't become legendary, it's a DM tool not a template.

[claiminglight]

Originally posted by Kasa:

@claiminglight

You have so far failed to make a point let alone prove one yet though, so what faith based buy in is there.

Please state your point very clearly and very simply, what are you trying to say?
Don't answer me with a question, just straight out say very cleanly very simply, what is your point.

The plainest I can be (while perhaps being a little inaccurate):

Turns and grid lines are not real to in-game characters. But they are real to players (including the DM).

Legendary actions are not in-game abilties. They're player abilities. Does that make sense?

[zero]

Originally posted by BHEscaper:

Originally posted by zero:

"A legendary creature can do things that ordinary creatures can't. It can take special actions outside its turn, and it might exert magical influence for miles around."

creatures of great importance are legendary creatures, dragons are common example of this, its because they stand out above the rest in same way, a Named creature is a similar state, its a method to make unique creatures that are stronger then their peers to show there strength through something beyond minions.

Yes. But not every dragon have legendary action right? We need in-game explanation why this dragon is so different.

the game generally does show that, at least adventure paths show it as being stronger then the others, but its not as if it ate <specific object> and became legendary, there is no real requirement besides being strong.

strahd is ultimately just some guy who became someone worthy of legendary actions over time, he stands out above the rest because he put in the time and effort to become that way.

its not supernatural, its just the old "refreshable SU abilities" by another name.

[Kasa]

Originally posted by claiminglight:

Originally posted by Kasa:

@claiminglight

You have so far failed to make a point let alone prove one yet though, so what faith based buy in is there.

Please state your point very clearly and very simply, what are you trying to say?
Don't answer me with a question, just straight out say very cleanly very simply, what is your point.

The plainest I can be:

Turns and grid lines are not real to in-game characters. But they are real to players (including the DM).

Legendary actions are not in-game abilties. They're player abilities. Does that make sense?

No, because they are not player abilities, they are DM tools.

[DiceWrangler]

When a group of optimized and prepared PCs rushes in, stun-locks and murders the boss -- sometimes in the first round -- in what is supposed to be an epic and final battle of a session or adventure the players briefly feel good about it but they walk away disappointed that it was not more challenging. Legendary Actions and Lair Actions are intended to make "Boss fights" more challenging and, by extension, more memorable.

What I miss as a DM are powers that recharge -- and can be used instantly -- when a monster is Bloodied and powers that activate as a Reaction like a Tail Swipe when an enemy gets behind a dragon. In my home games, I have added these back in -- without telling the players. 4e had a mantra of the player should know everything with no "gotchas!" but that is BS. I miss the days of "What? The Troll got up again? How the F do we kill it?!!!"

What I don't miss are 4e's Action Points, those were over-powered and 5e's Inspiration Points are too weak.

[claiminglight]

Originally posted by Kasa:

Originally posted by claiminglight:

The plainest I can be:

Turns and grid lines are not real to in-game characters. But they are real to players (including the DM).

Legendary actions are not in-game abilties. They're player abilities. Does that make sense?

No, because they are not player abilities, they are DM tools.

In my definition there, I consider the DM as a player. But sure, for the sake of it, let's rebrand it then as a DM Ability. Not a property of a monster, or a dungeon, but a property of the DM themselves.

[zero]

Originally posted by DiceWrangler:

When a group of optimized and prepared PCs rushes in, stun-locks and murders the boss -- sometimes in the first round -- in what is supposed to be an epic and final battle of a session or adventure the players briefly feel good about it but they walk away disappointed that it was not more challenging. Legendary Actions and Lair Actions are intended to make "Boss fights" more challenging and, by extension, more memorable.

What I miss as a DM are powers that recharge -- and can be used instantly -- when a monster is Bloodied and powers that activate as a Reaction like a Tail Swipe when an enemy gets behind a dragon. In my home games, I have added these back in -- without telling the players. 4e had a mantra of the player should know everything with no "gotchas!" but that is BS. I miss the days of "What? The Troll got up again? How the F do we kill it?!!!"

What I don't miss are 4e's Action Points, those were over-powered and 5e's Inspiration Points are too weak.

ironically your triggered tail swipe is also on the same black dragon page im using as example, and is ALSO an excellent example of what a legendary action would be.

Originally posted by adult black dragon:

Tail Lash Reaction Trigger A creature within reach of the dragon’s tail takes an action to Strike or attempt a skill check; Effect The dragon Strikes with its tail at the triggering creature at a –2 penalty. If it hits, the creature takes a –2 circumstance penalty to the triggering roll.

is this an example of "stepping between the spaces(as laughably not real as that remark is)?" an attack that isn't an reaction? that goes off turn? feels like it.

these things don't "break the frabric of my imaginationary quilt" as the TC claims, they are ultimately an old feature by a new name.