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Malus Mar 28, 2021 @ 7:06am
CMV Ranger is best Martial class in this game
Due to the 2 awesome Dual Weld FEATS in this game at this time.
Hunters mark and Colossus slayer are a great boost to DPS.
Rangers also have great utility.

Fighter is just weak without better subclasses. The SRD means no Battle Master.
I think Fighters should get a feat at level 1 in this game to balance

Pally is not bad but no Dual Wield hinders them IMHO. Although they make a great FACE for the party I am not sure it is needed in this game so far.


My opinions are for this GAME as it stands NOT D&D 5E
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Originally posted by MMS:
Great Weapon Fighting Paladin Preview

This time I'll do a breakdown of the GWF Oath of Tirmar Paladin's numbers to see how it compares, with TWF ranger, ok? We already know that TWF ranger does more sustained damage and the Pally does more burst, but now we'll put some numbers to that statement.

Like we've already seen before:
  • Ranger sustained DPS = from 22.69 to 26.05 (depending on how many rounds it takes to kill 1 specific enemy)
  • Paladin sustained DPS = 20.57 (just unbuffed martial character GWF Style damage with a Greatsword)

So the Greatsword Paladin does around 78~90% of the Ranger's sustained damage. It's inferior, but not massively so.

Now we need to look at his burst damage and see if his burst potential makes up for the lower DPR.

Skipping most calculations and explanations, here are the final numbers against an enemy with 15 AC (I'll always keep using this same enemy AC for every build to keep it fair):

- Average Unbuffed Damage = RawGWF_ExpectedDMG = 20.566 = 20.57 per round
- Burst mode against an unfavorable enemy
  • Explanations
    • Unfavorable in this context means: isn't undead or fiend (no extra 1d6 on smite), isn't shapeshifter or darkvision (no damage at all from Scourge of the Hidden)
    • Divine Favor was precast before battle. Unlike Hunter's Mark, it IS possible to do that with DF. Its duration is 10 rounds, but we already used one of it up by casting it before battle started, so it's now 9.
    • Oath of Tirmar's Channel Divinity doesn't do anything here, so it makes no difference if it's on or off.
  • Per-Round Breakdown
    • 1st Round:
      • Attack Action (x2 weapon attacks), Bonus Action (1 1d4 attack from follow up)
      • All attacks empowered by Smite (consuming all 3 level 2 spell slots)
      • Avg DMG * Hit Chance (skipping all calculations) = 57.1285 = ~57.13
    • 2nd Round:
      • Attack Action (x2 weapon attacks), Bonus Action (1 1d4 attack from follow up)
      • All attacks empowered by Smite (consuming 3 level 1 spell slots - the 4th spell slot was already used up by Divine Favor)
      • Avg DMG * Hit Chance (skipping all calculations) = 36.6535 = ~36.65
    • 3rd~9th round (only Divine Favor is still active now)
      • Avg DMG * Hit Chance (skipping all calculations) = 26.416 = ~26.42
    • 10th Round onwards (nothing is active now)
      • Avg DMG * Hit Chance = same as any unbuffed martial GWFer = 20.566 = ~20.57
- Burst Mode against a favorable enemy (undead, has darkvision)
  • 1st round (everything active, level 2 smites)
    • Damage per Round: 75.478 = ~75.48
  • 2nd round (everything active, level 1 smites)
    • Damage per Round: 65.2405 = ~65.24
  • 3~9th round (Divine Favor + Scourge of the Hidden [oath of Tirmar channel] still active, no smites)
    • Damage per Round: 34.528 = ~34.53
  • 10~99th round (Scourge of the Hidden still active)
    • Damage per Round: 28.678 = ~28.68
  • 100th Round onwards (totally unbuffed)
    • Damage per Round: 20.566 = ~20.57 (baseline)

Also, keep in mind that the dmg breakdown of all the styles I did ignores the existence of critical hits because they complicate the math a bit too much, while not usually being that impactful (since most styles are more or less equally affected by themdue to the same base 5% chance of rolling a 20).

HOWEVER, in GWF's case, it actually benefits MORE from Crits than the other styles (even though the odds to land one are the same) because of the damage dice rerolling mechanic AND the fact that even its weapon die is actually 2 dice (2d6), meaning crits with a Greatsword, despite having the same chance to occur as with any other weapon, are much less likely to generate low values on the new dice they create.

Because that IS what a crit does in 5e/Solasta: it keeps whatever you rolled on your weapon damage die/dice, then it rolls another weapon die/dice and adds that. And this second die/dice can probably get rerolled by GWF Style if it lands on a 1 or 2... I mean, if even Smites get rerolled, it's a safe bet that crits do too - but I have to test it later to be sure.

So, to sum up: since the method I used for both the Paladin and TWF Ranger calculations does NOT take crits into account, these comparisons are actually a little unfavorable to the GWF Pally, since crits affect GWF more than TWF.

If we added crit calculations to both TWF Ranger and GWF Paladin, the disparity between burst damage Paladin and everything else would jump up even further, while the sustained damage edge that TWF Ranger has over raw GWF damage would diminish even further. I don't know by how much, though. Not looking forward to making these calculations even more cumbersome.



Now to get your opinion on other things. This is for SOLASTA as it stands not 5E.

Of course. This IS a Solasta forum after all, not PNP.

Should FIghters get a feat at level 1 or 2 to help bring them up? or just a redoing of the subclasses? They will probably have more added I assume.

I don't think Fighters are in a bad spot at all! They might do less sustained damage than an optimized Ranger, but they have Action Surge and Second Wind, both of which are decent short rest abilities, plus heavy armor for players who want to feel a bit safer.

You don't need to do a long rest (8 hours) after every combat, but it's pretty reasonable to do a short rest (1 hour) every 3 or 4 combats, maybe even sooner if things get rough. That makes Action surge a pretty decent ability.

Lastly, the subclasses aren't bad either! I like 'em!

Champion

Champion is a straight up damage buff that's braindead simple to use. Being a simple, passive buff that's always turned on and decently effective might be "boring" and not the "best" option strictly speaking (other builds can be finetuned to do more damage under specific circumstances), but being simple and general while still reasonably effective is the whole point of the class and it's important that it exists. It's for novice or less patient players who don't want to get too bogged down in complicated choices.

After all, if you want to minmax a Champion, the only thing you have to do is pump strength and wield a Greatsword/Maul - that's attractive for players who want to keep it simple and not juggle a bunch of different abilites and such.

It fills an important niche and fills it well.

Should it be buffed?

I don't think so.

Since the whole deal with the Champion is making critical more likely than with anyone else, and all that criticals do is add your weapon damage die to the attack one more time, the optimal way to play Champions is by giving them a Greatsword/Maul and the Great Weapon Fighting Feat, like with the Pally.

But, unlike Paladins, fighters actually have 3 feats, which means that THIS character can get Follow Up Attack and still have 2 ASI to invest in STR by level 8, so he (unlike the paladin) will have 20 STR.

Right off the bat, this means that - when we ignore any critical hit calculations, which are the Champion's whole schtick - a GWF fighter does NOT do an expected damage per round of 20.57 damage.

It's actually 22.516 = ~22.52.

Let's remember that an unbuffed TWF does 19.95 against the same AC and even the optimized TWF Ranger build only does around 26 damage on the absolute best case scenario and around 22 for the worst case... so this is already pretty damn good, considering the Champion has exactly the same plan for every turn for every fight: no messing around with hunter's mark, no deciding whether or not to smite, just run up and whack 'em twice, then bonus action to whack em again. Maybe an action surge in a boss fight if you remember that it exists.

Once you calculate the increased crit threat range, as well as the effect that GWF has on those extra crit dice, he gets even better - but I'm not going to do that here. He's easy to use, but his math involves criticals and, thus, gets complicated.

So I think he's plenty strong enough as it is, considering how auto-pilot it is to play him. I wouldn't even be surprised if, after including crit calculations into the mix, he came out slightly ahead of TWF Ranger in terms of sustained damage.

I'm telling you, people underestimate the GWF Style way too much. "Reroll 1s and 2s" sounds lame compared to "You can now add your +5 dex to your offhand damage!", but it's deceptively powerful when you couple it with things that add dice, like using a Greatsword and the Follow Up Attack feat. Mix it in with other class abilites that add damage dice like the Pally's smite or the champion's higher chance to crit and it's even more golden.

Mountaineer

In ideal conditions (next to a wall), Mountaineer can reach 23 AC with the defense style, if that's your thing. Or 22 AC and slightly more decent DPR with Dueling. Or 22 AC and use the Protection style to make it harder to attack your comrades.

It also gains the Close Quarters ability to spend his bonus action to switch places with the enemy and play around with positioning + get advantage. That's kind of fun; and you're (probably) not using your bonus action as a Sword and Shield character for anything else anyway, so why not?

You can even use one of your feats (you do have an extra laying around, after all) and stack +1 AC on top of all that you already have with Armor Master to be an ubertank.

It's not necessarily my cup of tea, because I prefer to maximize damage above all, but it's one of the best choices players who want defensive characters in Solasta can take, maybe THE best choice. It's not lacking, it's just not my thing personally.

Spellblade

Okay, I know this isn't about PNP, but I'll make an exception for this and this alone. Spellblade makes me a bit sad because Eldritch Knight (its licensed counterpart) is my favorite class in PNP and it's way better than the Spellblade despite having fewer spell schools at his disposion.

First because EK has abjuration, which has the Shield spell, and Spellblade does not. :(

Secondly because EK can cast a Cantrip as an action and do one Weapon Attack as bonus action at level 7, and Spellblade cannot. :(

I find it a bit lackluster, but - to be honest - it's probably because of a strong negative bias. So it's hard for me to pass proper judgment on this one.

As a fan of Clerics what do you like for sub classes? I feel the subclasses for CLERIC are really well done flavor wise. I use BATTLE and it seems border line OP to me. The casting with my hands full is almost worth it alone but add in all the amazing goodies and spells its hard to top.

You've seen how long I go on when talking about simpler martial characters... If I start talking about clerics and its 9 domains, we'll be here forever.

WIzard I fell is in a pretty good spot with Scribe a little behind at this point. Green mage is good but not worth the DPS loss.

Green Mage is for when you want Ranger utility, but don't want to create a Ranger. Maybe because you already have a Rogue, for example.

The loss of DPS (compared to Shock Arcanist) is the price to pay for infinite food, I guess.

Not my thing, but I think there's a niche for that, so it's reasonable. Have you seen how many people whine on the forums and reviews about softlocking themselves because they can't manage their rations? They would probably see a lot of value in a wizard that can create food...

Loremaster would feel a nice niche for people who are paranoid about missing spells, about not having absolutely everything written down in their spellbook because it might come in handy one day... IF there were more spells available in Solasta.

As it is, it doesn't really "feel" like I'm missing out on any must-haves when playing a shock arcanist. But that's subjective.

Next time I'll run some numbers on the bugged Spellblade archer vs the non-bugged Marksman Archer.
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angrytrex Mar 28, 2021 @ 8:34am 
I'm running a Ranger, Paladin, and Fighter in my party.

The Ranger is setup like you mentioned. The Paladin is devotion / duelist and uses a rapier. The Warrior is champion / sword and shield. They are currently level 5.

Objectively speaking, I think the ranger does do the most damage and is the most flexible of the 3. I wouldn't call them the best though because I don't think I would want to replace the other two with more rangers.
#1
Malus Mar 28, 2021 @ 8:52am 
Originally posted by angrytrex:
I'm running a Ranger, Paladin, and Fighter in my party.

The Ranger is setup like you mentioned. The Paladin is devotion / duelist and uses a rapier. The Warrior is champion / sword and shield. They are currently level 5.

Objectively speaking, I think the ranger does do the most damage and is the most flexible of the 3. I wouldn't call them the best though because I don't think I would want to replace the other two with more rangers.

Would a Ranger replacing your fighter increase your DPS and utility?

As a side note the Battle cleric is REALLY good for a Martial party.
#2
angrytrex Mar 28, 2021 @ 9:04am 
Not quite. The fighter adds some utility to the team with the shield by blocking a lot of attacks meant for the ranger. The fighter is more durable too, and he can still do good some burst damage once per fight.

Paladin is kind of the same way. The charm resistance and some of the benefits make for a nice insurance policy.

I did want a cleric, but I was unsure at the time of how to replace the rogue so i'm stuck with an annoying halfling Dark caster.
#3
Thndslz Mar 28, 2021 @ 9:16am 
People should give a change for Greenmages (miniranger), Darkweavers and especially Spellblades. Theyre murdermachines.
#4
Malus Mar 28, 2021 @ 11:21am 
Originally posted by Thndslz:
People should give a change for Greenmages (miniranger), Darkweavers and especially Spellblades. Theyre murdermachines.

DPS wise Greenmage does NOT compete with Shock Arcanist.

Edit to add a Elven Sellsword Shock gets long bow AND Med armor (which is better than Green mages light).

DW Ranger Hunter with DW Feats is better DPS then any other Martial class no matter what subclass as far as i can tell. Also good utility spells as ranger.
Last edited by Malus; Mar 28, 2021 @ 11:32am
#5
Malus Mar 28, 2021 @ 11:30am 
Originally posted by angrytrex:
Not quite. The fighter adds some utility to the team with the shield by blocking a lot of attacks meant for the ranger. The fighter is more durable too, and he can still do good some burst damage once per fight.

Paladin is kind of the same way. The charm resistance and some of the benefits make for a nice insurance policy.

I did want a cleric, but I was unsure at the time of how to replace the rogue so i'm stuck with an annoying halfling Dark caster.

Ranger with FEATS would be higher DPS and damage reduction for self.

Protection Fight is a DPS loss and protection is situtational and only effects 1 attack per round, also it just gives disadvantage. and You lose your AoO.

His burst is ONCE per short rest not once per fight.

Same arguement to Pally. A loss in DPS and utility can be made up for with a Battle cleric and buffs.
Plus with pally spell casting you are stuck with 2h if you want to use spells.
#6
Blackmage Mar 28, 2021 @ 11:54am 
Don't start this debate again.
#7
angrytrex Mar 28, 2021 @ 2:07pm 
Once per short rest is basically once per fight.

Also, you don't actually use your opportunity attack every round because you don't get the chance to. The shield character usually does though, and all those wasted opportunity attacks are usually being put to use averting ranged attacks. The protection character is the only character who uses his reactionary ability every single turn.

I find min/max discussions to be kinda stupid. The current party i'm running is far from min/max and is utterly destroying everything with little effort. Replacing the other 3 characters with rangers won't change this. You could add 2 ranger npc companions and it doesn't matter at this point.
#8
Carog the Fat Mar 28, 2021 @ 2:53pm 
unless they have significantly increased the difficulty min/maxing doesn't seem to be needed in this game. the damage is good but they already said the feats may need tuning. also i love my paladins blind ability so good.
#9
amiablequinn Mar 29, 2021 @ 3:14am 
Originally posted by Carog the Fat:
unless they have significantly increased the difficulty min/maxing doesn't seem to be needed in this game. the damage is good but they already said the feats may need tuning. also i love my paladins blind ability so good.

Try cataclysm difficulty. You really do need to optimize.
#10
Mr RocknRoll Mar 29, 2021 @ 6:20am 
Imagine a world where you play a Role-playing game and not care if I do 5 more damage on average and just play your character? When you play like that it looks alot more like DnD
#11
Sever Mar 29, 2021 @ 6:33am 
Without other Fighter archetypes and without a level cap that would give them more extra attacks than any other class, the Fighter is definitely behind the Ranger.

Paladins are behind the Ranger as well but have more burst potential due to Divine Smite. This, combined with some nice defensive abilities/traits, makes them on par overall with the Ranger, I think.

I am looking forward to how the developers may try to address the relative power of the Fighter. It may be challenging to do with a level cap of 10 (from what I understand).

Those are my thoughts anyway. I haven't played much 5e, so I may be missing something.
Last edited by Sever; Mar 29, 2021 @ 6:34am
#12
Malus Mar 29, 2021 @ 6:51am 
Originally posted by Sever:
Without other Fighter archetypes and without a level cap that would give them more extra attacks than any other class, the Fighter is definitely behind the Ranger.

Paladins are behind the Ranger as well but have more burst potential due to Divine Smite. This, combined with some nice defensive abilities/traits, makes them on par overall with the Ranger, I think.

I am looking forward to how the developers may try to address the relative power of the Fighter. It may be challenging to do with a level cap of 10 (from what I understand).

Those are my thoughts anyway. I haven't played much 5e, so I may be missing something.

I think the DW feats are why the ranger is better then the pally. 2 feats that are both VERY good when added to DW fighting style.

Pally casting almost requires a 2H. Which is fine since it is a good weapon but the fighting style sucks and isnt worth it. The feat in game is decent though.
#13
Malus Mar 29, 2021 @ 6:52am 
Originally posted by Mr RocknRoll:
Imagine a world where you play a Role-playing game and not care if I do 5 more damage on average and just play your character? When you play like that it looks alot more like DnD

The whole topic is which martial class is better. For those of us who tweak difficulties and MIN/MAX on some of our play throughs.

Maybe imagine a world where you dont click on threads you have no interest in.
Last edited by Malus; Mar 29, 2021 @ 6:54am
#14
Mr RocknRoll Mar 29, 2021 @ 7:16am 
Originally posted by Malus:
Originally posted by Mr RocknRoll:
Imagine a world where you play a Role-playing game and not care if I do 5 more damage on average and just play your character? When you play like that it looks alot more like DnD

The whole topic is which martial class is better. For those of us who tweak difficulties and MIN/MAX on some of our play throughs.

Maybe imagine a world where you dont click on threads you have no interest in.
:steamsalty:
#15
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Date Posted: Mar 28, 2021 @ 7:06am
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