Sorcerer looks like weak wizard and self penalty

[Dorok]

The sorcerer not played but created and level up to 10 looks quit like a crap wizard no matter the 3 specialization.

It's clearly no old Sorcerer with a wide choice of spell, some mor spells to learn along level up, and significantly more spells slots. So it seems now the only point of Sorcerer are a lot of nerf in exchange of sorcerer points, but frankly it's hard figure how they can justify the nerfs.

[Frostfeather]

Bak Bon Dzshow の投稿を引用：

My first remark was about the need of certain spells in Solasta. But you interpetration fits your need so run with it.

The sorc is voted one of the three most lackluster classes in 5th together with the monk and the ranger, but you do you.

What spells?

And I suspect people are having the exact same problems as they are in Solasta - misunderstanding Sorcerers strengths, trying to make them something they're not, or making faulty comparisons. Or they're just angry they feel the class was "nerfed".

But you do you.

[Dorok]

Spells required is an interesting topic, when I started the game and sometimes had troubles, I could have the feeling some spells was mostly mandatory, but now I'm less sure of it.

A good example was my first party I was happy with and that reach last combat of first area, I was so frustrated to not be able light torches with a torch in hand that I thought that Sparkle cantrip was mandatory. I throw the party to trash, tried some new with Sparkle, picked one reach the combat and won it without using at all Sparkle just through a tactic working well enough, and probably for any party.

Fly or Spider Climb could also feel like mandatory but there's shoes giving a permanent state of Spider Climb, and another giving one Fly cast each day.

And so on.

At the end, what spell is mandatory? None I think. But that's not fully relevant to the problem of Sorcerer. Who needs a Sorcerer to beat the game? Nobody. Who wants play a Sorcerer and pay the price of management hassle to identify magic items without Magic Detect and Identify spells? A first point at first play it would be a high risk to try that without meta knowledge of the game, second point it's a pointless micro management hassle, no Sorcerer can justify it.

But then, firstly a Sorcerer could be played with a mage, and secondly both Magic Detect and Identify can be known by some subclasses or classes other than Wizard or Sorcerer.

So what? In my opinion:
- I can't advise to a newbie pick a Sorcerer for his first play, that's non sense, or ensure read a lot about the game.
- Is there any spell required in the game? I don't think so, but a few lacking will generate a hassle, but still this will be fully manageable, so nothing really mandatory.
- Pick a strong list of spell for a Sorcerer working well in the game without any pre knowledge of the game (aka metaknowledge)? I would argue, fine, show me a Tabletop Sorcerer build and let see how good it is in Solasta. Otherwise I have doubts.

[QuailLover]

I always enjoyed the sorcerer more than wizard. I hate having to figure out which spells to ready and everything, and I always chose the wrong spells for the day. So I always choose a sorcerer. Might have less spells, but I can use all of them.

One thing that I see that people always miss in the sorcerer and wizard debate, is skills. While the wizard is great for both spell variety and skills based in int. or wis. there is one aspect the sorcerer dominates in.

A sorcerer is an amazing natural "face" for the party. Use a half elf, get that charisma bonus, get a proficiency in persuade, and bam! Super useful character who can sling spells, and convince the court that the fireball was not their fault.

[PXR5]

QuailLover の投稿を引用：

I always enjoyed the sorcerer more than wizard. I hate having to figure out which spells to ready and everything, and I always chose the wrong spells for the day. So I always choose a sorcerer. Might have less spells, but I can use all of them.

One thing that I see that people always miss in the sorcerer and wizard debate, is skills. While the wizard is great for both spell variety and skills based in int. or wis. there is one aspect the sorcerer dominates in.

A sorcerer is an amazing natural "face" for the party. Use a half elf, get that charisma bonus, get a proficiency in persuade, and bam! Super useful character who can sling spells, and convince the court that the fireball was not their fault.

I prefer a Warlock then.

[Gracey Face]

Blackdragon の投稿を引用：

When has Sorcerer ever dominated the Wizard?

In 3.5. Better casting ability, a better primary stat for casting in Cha, Cha as the primary stat leads to them being able to use UMD effectively, spellcasting isn't tied to an item so you can't just be turned into a lvl 0 nobody by some random pickpocket rolling a 20 during towntime.

And this is without expansions and "normal" houserules such as the innate eschew and stuff like that. And hell never mind PF.

The only advantages Wiz has in 3.5 and in PF is "better versatility" (which isn't really an advantage for a bunch of practical reasons) and more feats so better metamagic (which is odd, considering that sorc is the metamagic class in 5e :D).

[Zhein]

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

In 3.5. Better casting ability, a better primary stat for casting in Cha, Cha as the primary stat leads to them being able to use UMD effectively, spellcasting isn't tied to an item so you can't just be turned into a lvl 0 nobody by some random pickpocket rolling a 20 during towntime.

And this is without expansions and "normal" houserules such as the innate eschew and stuff like that. And hell never mind PF.

The only advantages Wiz has in 3.5 and in PF is "better versatility" (which isn't really an advantage for a bunch of practical reasons) and more feats so better metamagic (which is odd, considering that sorc is the metamagic class in 5e :D).

Charisma is the dump stat by definition. UMD does jack for a wiz' because he has all of the spells on his spell list and doesn't need an UMD check (and there are tricks to add cleric spells to your spell list). Int is a way way way way better stat.

Your DM is a douchebag for playing the "hohoho I stole your spellbook", because he could also say "hohoho you're in an antimagic field lol", and it doesn't matter at all. The wiz could hide all day in his tiny hut, or trap his spellbook with magic runes, or whatever.

"normal houserules" ? Wtf is a normal houserule ? Not having a douchebag DM is a normal houserule ?

The advantages of the wiz are more spells, better spell progression, better versatility, better metamagic, basically better at everything than a sorcerer, and wizards are even more handsome.

I mean a sorc' can't quickcast without rapid metamagic. And he has less feats to begin with, so that's a feat less.

More feats mean easier access to godlike Pc that the sorc could never access.

In exchange, a sorcerer might be able to cast one or two spells more each day ?
if we're talking about a focused specialist that's a grand total of 0 spell more.

And if it's a shadowcraft mage, it could cast pretty much spontaneously (like a sorcerer) any spell (not like a sorcerer), apply metamagic (not like a sorcerer) and have access to other broken PC like Archmage.
Works also with a mage of the arcane order, that also allows to cast any spell.

At least sorc has some fun spells with wings of flurry that is a cool spell, I'll give him that. But no, Sorc was never better than wizard in 3.5. As any spontaneous casting, they are always worse than their traditionnal classes.

Blackdragon の投稿を引用：

Empower in Solasta (if it were not bugged) would reroll 1 and 2, so the worst 33% of the rolls. This would translate in a difficult to quantify, but noticeable boost to damage - on top of the Draconic Sorcerer's permanent +5 (CHA bonus) to damage for spells of his element.

It's pretty easy to quantify. It changes the dice roll to 3.5/3.5/3/4/5/6, so an average roll of 4.16, and increase of 0.66 damage per dice.

...

Meh, that's a 5 damage increase on a 8d6 spell. Not really impressive. 2.5 if the target doesn't fail its dext save.

[Dorok]

Sorcerer BG2 at level 10
- Number of cast per day: 6 6 6 5 3
- No spell memorize to do
- 15 spells known from the total pool of spells, no mage spell impossible to pick.

Mage BG2 at level 10
- Number of cast per day: 4 4 3 2 2
- Each spell cast must be memorized no flexibility, memorized one fireball and oops want two, nope.
- Potentially all spells known.

In a video game, Mage was no Match with Sorcerer and from far.

At level 16 (end game or close I believe) it's even worse:
Sorcerer: 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3, and 28 spells known
Mage: 5 5 5 5 5 3 2 1

Quote highest level spells, 6/5/3 versus 3/2/1, no mage flexibility can compensate that or it's tabeltop and the DM is very kind with meta knowledge and preparing memorized spells for next event.

[Frostfeather]

Zhein の投稿を引用：

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

In 3.5. Better casting ability, a better primary stat for casting in Cha, Cha as the primary stat leads to them being able to use UMD effectively, spellcasting isn't tied to an item so you can't just be turned into a lvl 0 nobody by some random pickpocket rolling a 20 during towntime.

And this is without expansions and "normal" houserules such as the innate eschew and stuff like that. And hell never mind PF.

The only advantages Wiz has in 3.5 and in PF is "better versatility" (which isn't really an advantage for a bunch of practical reasons) and more feats so better metamagic (which is odd, considering that sorc is the metamagic class in 5e :D).

Charisma is the dump stat by definition. UMD does jack for a wiz' because he has all of the spells on his spell list and doesn't need an UMD check (and there are tricks to add cleric spells to your spell list). Int is a way way way way better stat.

Your DM is a douchebag for playing the "hohoho I stole your spellbook", because he could also say "hohoho you're in an antimagic field lol", and it doesn't matter at all. The wiz could hide all day in his tiny hut, or trap his spellbook with magic runes, or whatever.

"normal houserules" ? Wtf is a normal houserule ? Not having a douchebag DM is a normal houserule ?

The advantages of the wiz are more spells, better spell progression, better versatility, better metamagic, basically better at everything than a sorcerer, and wizards are even more handsome.

I mean a sorc' can't quickcast without rapid metamagic. And he has less feats to begin with, so that's a feat less.

More feats mean easier access to godlike Pc that the sorc could never access.

In exchange, a sorcerer might be able to cast one or two spells more each day ?
if we're talking about a focused specialist that's a grand total of 0 spell more.

And if it's a shadowcraft mage, it could cast pretty much spontaneously (like a sorcerer) any spell (not like a sorcerer), apply metamagic (not like a sorcerer) and have access to other broken PC like Archmage.
Works also with a mage of the arcane order, that also allows to cast any spell.

At least sorc has some fun spells with wings of flurry that is a cool spell, I'll give him that. But no, Sorc was never better than wizard in 3.5. As any spontaneous casting, they are always worse than their traditionnal classes.

Blackdragon の投稿を引用：

Empower in Solasta (if it were not bugged) would reroll 1 and 2, so the worst 33% of the rolls. This would translate in a difficult to quantify, but noticeable boost to damage - on top of the Draconic Sorcerer's permanent +5 (CHA bonus) to damage for spells of his element.

It's pretty easy to quantify. It changes the dice roll to 3.5/3.5/3/4/5/6, so an average roll of 4.16, and increase of 0.66 damage per dice.

...

Meh, that's a 5 damage increase on a 8d6 spell. Not really impressive. 2.5 if the target doesn't fail its dext save.

Sorcerer was better, but this too far off topic to be discussing on a Solasta forum.

[PXR5]

Dorok の投稿を引用：

Sorcerer BG2 at level 10
- Number of cast per day: 6 6 6 5 3
- No spell memorize to do
- 15 spells known from the total pool of spells, no mage spell impossible to pick.

Mage BG2 at level 10
- Number of cast per day: 4 4 3 2 2
- Each spell cast must be memorized no flexibility, memorized one fireball and oops want two, nope.
- Potentially all spells known.

In a video game, Mage was no Match with Sorcerer and from far.

At level 16 (end game or close I believe) it's even worse:
Sorcerer: 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3, and 28 spells known
Mage: 5 5 5 5 5 3 2 1

Quote highest level spells, 6/5/3 versus 3/2/1, no mage flexibility can compensate that or it's tabeltop and the DM is very kind with meta knowledge and preparing memorized spells for next event.

Euh no, Wizards, if you took a specialist and you would be crazy not to, had
5 5 4 3 3 at lvl 10.
6 6 6 6 6 5 4 4 3 at lvl 20
And they had access to level 10 spells. Something sorcs didn't. The specialist mages had added benefits to the savingthrows and damage dice of their school.

[Gracey Face]

Zhein の投稿を引用：

Charisma is the dump stat by definition. UMD does jack for a wiz' because he has all of the spells on his spell list and doesn't need an UMD check (and there are tricks to add cleric spells to your spell list). Int is a way way way way better stat.

Cha is only a dumpstat in computer games where you'll only ever have the designated face talk to people. And that you don't understand the power of the UMD skill says more about you than anything. Hell it's kind of half the reason to play bard lmao.

[Dorok]

For the level 10 spells forbidden to Sorcerers in BG2, I didn't knew.

For the Specialist point of view, it's a whole school of spells forbidden to the mage specialist, it's a huge burden. And it won't change that it's spell cast prepared one per one, free choice like in D&D 5e for the sorcerer.

So Specialist ok, what school? Because stay vague is like he has access to all spells but nope.

The problem of the specialist is this shool limit is huge, and because of that, a sorcerer is a much better choice. The base mage doesn't have this problem and is a real mage fitting a role a sorcerer can't play but that is relative from a video game perspective.

[Zhein]

Dorok の投稿を引用：

The problem of the specialist is this shool limit is huge, and because of that, a sorcerer is a much better choice. The base mage doesn't have this problem and is a real mage fitting a role a sorcerer can't play but that is relative from a video game perspective.

Talking about tabletop or video game ? because specialist is just clearly a way better choice in table top. What school to ban ? Necro-evocation-enchantement
Pick conjuration or transmutation.

For BG2, you just need to take a look at spell lists, and it probably involves abusing simulacrum and time stop. Probably conjurer I guess, divination isn't great in baldur's gate.

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

Cha is only a dumpstat in computer games where you'll only ever have the designated face talk to people. And that you don't understand the power of the UMD skill says more about you than anything. Hell it's kind of half the reason to play bard lmao.

1 - UMD is not on the Sorc list.

2 - UMD only use is using things that you can't use normaly. Since a wizard can cast any spell including divine spells he doesn't need UMD. And for the rare spells he can't cast (or if the wiz doesn't want to go cleric spell access), he can invoke/planar binding/etc a creature that can do it for him. Give me a single thing wiz can do with umd that he can't emulate with a summon or just do with a spell.

3 - Bards are not good because of UMD. UMD just makes them cheap wizards knock-off. Bards are good because they can go divine chord, be a real boy, and have full caster level.

4 - Because you don't have a designated face in any tabletop rpg ? Of course you do. And it's not the wizard's role to be the face, let the face be the face.

[Dorok]

Zhein の投稿を引用：

Dorok の投稿を引用：

The problem of the specialist is this shool limit is huge, and because of that, a sorcerer is a much better choice. The base mage doesn't have this problem and is a real mage fitting a role a sorcerer can't play but that is relative from a video game perspective.

Talking about tabletop or video game ? because specialist is just clearly a way better choice in table top. What school to ban ? Necro-evocation-enchantement
Pick conjuration or transmutation.

For BG2, you just need to take a look at spell lists, and it probably involves abusing simulacrum and time stop. Probably conjurer I guess, divination isn't great in baldur's gate.

Divination?
No Detect Invisibility.
No Farsight.
No Find Traps
No Identify
No Infravision
I don't remind if illusions was a thing in BG2.

Your specialist is dead to replace a Mage. And you want it compete with Sorcerer freedom slots? Woo ok your opinion, but I think it's more you forgot how restrictive it is to memorize casts not group of spells as in 5e.

[Gracey Face]

Zhein の投稿を引用：

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

Cha is only a dumpstat in computer games where you'll only ever have the designated face talk to people. And that you don't understand the power of the UMD skill says more about you than anything. Hell it's kind of half the reason to play bard lmao.

1 - UMD is not on the Sorc list.

2 - UMD only use is using things that you can't use normaly. Since a wizard can cast any spell including divine spells he doesn't need UMD. And for the rare spells he can't cast (or if the wiz doesn't want to go cleric spell access), he can invoke/planar binding/etc a creature that can do it for him. Give me a single thing wiz can do with umd that he can't emulate with a summon or just do with a spell.

3 - Bards are not good because of UMD. UMD just makes them cheap wizards knock-off. Bards are good because they can go divine chord, be a real boy, and have full caster level.

4 - Because you don't have a designated face in any tabletop rpg ? Of course you do. And it's not the wizard's role to be the face, let the face be the face.

1. Hence;

The guy who knows what he is talking about の投稿を引用：

Cha as the primary stat leads to them being able to use UMD effectively

Cha being your casting attribute means you can use it despite it being cross class for you.

2. You don't understand the rules.

You can only cast things THAT ARE ON YOUR SPELL LIST. Wiz can cast some divine spells (I think, not actually sure), but he can't cast ALL divine spells. A scroll of resurrection (for example) is just merchant fodder for a wizard or even a sorc if they don't have UMD.

Additionally if you don't have enough in the attribute for that scroll (so say you want to cast heal you need 16 Wis), and if you lack the skill that some spells require (so again for heal you also need 6 in the Heal skill) you need to take UMD checks to be able to spoof those abilities.

Oh and as an aside, since your "JUST CAST PLANAR BINDING, DUH!!" thing was so well thought out (lmao). Planar binding is a ritual that takes 10 minutes (at least) to cast, has to be done in a specific area and, most funnily of all, you need to pass CHA checks to both have the summoned planar being stay in your trap and also do what you ask it to and not to immediately kill you or to pretend to do your bidding and then hunt you down.

CHA's a dump stat though :P. lmfao.

3. Yes they are.

4. You do, or should, but you're not a single entity, you're a group of 4 individuals who all pull in different directions and do different things. If you spend the whole campaign as mute shadows to the face then you're not roleplaying.

[Zhein]

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

You can only cast things THAT ARE ON YOUR SPELL LIST. Wiz can cast some divine spells (I think, not actually sure), but he can't cast ALL divine spells

A well built wizard can cast all of divine spells. And it has multiple ways to do that.

Rainbow Servant PRC. Mystic Theurge PRC. (Domaine Wiz though it's limited.)

So yes a good wizard can have the full cleric access. You don't know anything about 3.5.

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

"(so say you want to cast heal you need 16 Wis)"

Why would I ever want to cast heal ?
It's a ♥♥♥♥ spell, and a waste of money when you can get a wand of lesser vigor for dirt cheap and let the cleric use it anyway if needed ? And the only way of failing even if for some reason I don't have access to the cleric spell list or a cleric or a druid is roling a 1.

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

(so again for heal you also need 6 in the Heal skill)

No, stop talking nonsense.

"Level: Clr 6, Drd 7, Healing 6"

Let me clear that for you, because you obviously checked the SRD for a spell since you don't know them.
It means it's a 6th level spell on the healing domain. Not "You need 6 in healing to cast heal".

You can even click on it to get to the healing domain.

Learn to read the SRD, you don't even know basic rules to cast spells for god's sake. Why are you even talking about 3.5 ?
Ps : On a wand, the ability score is not used. The only check is if you can have the spell on your spell list.

Conclusion : UMD is still useless for a full caster, especially a wizard. You're not going to get a wand or a scroll out of your bag in combat when you're a caster, especially to cast divine spells when you're an arcane caster. If you're doing that, you are failing at your job of arcane caster clearly.

Uosdwis R. Dawoh の投稿を引用：

3. Yes they are.

Since you don't know how to cast a spell as basic as heal, and you don't know heal is a useless spell, and since you don't know how to read the SRD, we can safely reject anything you are saying, especially since you're absolutely using 0 argument to advance what you are saying except "Mah sorcerer masterace hurrdurr charisma so good."

Feel free to play an inferior class, have fun where you want, and how you want, but stop claiming that sorcerers are better because "They marginaly have +5 relative to a wizard for UMD use" because that's litteraly the only thing that they have better. And i'm not even sure about it going up to +5 since wizards have skill points to invest in cross class skill that sorcerers don't, and if you want to pick a PRC, any PRC, you're going to invest your skill points in something that is NOT UMD, rendering your point moot anyway because you'll never get more than 5 levels in it anyway as a sorcerer.

Pretty much every other "advantage" you have claimed for the sorcerer I have proved false, and you're just hanging to the fact that "hurr durr UMD is so strong".

Please stop. It's just ridiculous. Umd is just a clutch for non wizards to feel like wanna be wizards, at the cost of skill points and a ton of money. Yes UMD IS strong. Because it makes non wizards nearly as good as wizards. Because if gives non wizards what you were mocking in your first post : Versatility.

Also "mah roleplay", don't go claiming that X is better than Y mechanically then talking about roleplaying. It's moving the goalpost. In a point-buy system, 28 points is 16-16 or 16-14-14 and the rest at 10. On a 32 point buy it's 16/16/14. And since you want : Your main stat, constitution, and dexterity, Charisma, is, and always will be, a dump stat for anything that isn't charisma dependent.

We can end the "discussion" here, you're not making any sense and it's pointless to argue with you anyway. You don't know how 3.5 works clearly.

Dorok の投稿を引用：

Divination?

In BG2 it's 10 spells, half useless.
You're just losing true sight and you won't be preparing true sight most of the time. In exchange for a free conjuration slot. Not, that's really good in BG2. It's the "best" school to lose freely without much impact in the game.