Sorcerer looks like weak wizard and self penalty

[Dorok]

The sorcerer not played but created and level up to 10 looks quit like a crap wizard no matter the 3 specialization.

It's clearly no old Sorcerer with a wide choice of spell, some mor spells to learn along level up, and significantly more spells slots. So it seems now the only point of Sorcerer are a lot of nerf in exchange of sorcerer points, but frankly it's hard figure how they can justify the nerfs.

[Blackdragon]

The Sorcerer is majorly bugged, otherwise it would have been a challenge to the Shock Arcanist. As it stands, with numerous key abilities not working, there is no mechanical reason to play a Sorcerer.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

The Sorcerer is majorly bugged, otherwise it would have been a challenge to the Shock Arcanist. As it stands, with numerous key abilities not working, there is no mechanical reason to play a Sorcerer.

Ok but it should be fixed, so when it is, what's the point?

I see the few special abilities through sorcerer points added with level up, with 1 point per level up and working quite like spell slots, it looks like a pointless joke, as I wrote, a player that want challenge himself by playing a weak class. One almost make me laugh, spell with one target increased to two targets? Lol is there any? Or the low RNG chance to restore one spell point, looks like a good joke.

[Wayward Raven]

Child of the Rift is much more powerful than you may expect. Think of the way Offering interacts with Revivify and Greater Restoration.

Mana Painter also offers some interesting tactical possibilities with Heightened Entangle.

Sorcerers are still weak but they still bring some possibilities to the game.

[Dorok]

Mmm ok, I'll have to set English, the translation are very bizarre. So that's some healing spell that are one target spells, I forgot it. And there's haste too, mmm ok could be not bad if a Sorcerer can learn haste. Perhaps one target spells to two targets isn't insignificant.

[rumpelstiltskin]

it's 5e wizard's payback for years of sorcerer domination

[Dorok]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

it's 5e wizard's payback for years of sorcerer domination

Mmm I think many tabletop players won't agree, but with the tabelop point of view, not the video game point of view. I read many comments that Wizard always been the stronger class no matter the edition, the problem is their extreme adaptability can't be challenged by anything. But for combats in BG2 with all updates Wizard was no match, but that's video game.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Ok but it should be fixed, so when it is, what's the point?

For the Draconic Sorcerer, the Charisma to damage at all times for spells of a certain element is a very powerful ability. Yes, Shock Arcanist gets that and also proficiency bonus to spell damage, but only for 1 minute per long rest, while Draconic Sorcerer gets the bonus all day long.

Empower Spell that rerolls 1's and 2's and only costs 1 SP is a very decent boost to damage (for calculations on tabletop Empower see e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/9lp79w/i_did_some_mathgraphs_on_the_effectiveness_of_the/ )

The defensive bonuses are obviously less important for an offensive caster, but still nothing to snooze at (AC increase equal to free +2 leather armor from level 1, hp increase equal to +2 Con, Resistance to your element for 1 hr per SP).

Plus all the usual Sorc shenanigans like twinning Greater Invisibility or Haste, etc.

The Shock Arcanist would still probably be ahead in terms of pure burst damage, but Sorc would offer an interesting addition to a party.

Meanwhile, though, in its bugged state the Sorc is mechanically weak and, as you said, only good for challenge or novelty.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

it's 5e wizard's payback for years of sorcerer domination

When has Sorcerer ever dominated the Wizard? In 3/3.5 the Wizard was leaps and bounds ahead in terms of power. In 5e despite Wizards being severely gimped the Sorcerer still only gains advantage through multiclassing (Sorlock), but a multiclassed Wizard is also very powerful (Storm Cleric + Loremaster Wizard = big bang).

[Dorok]

The problem with empower spell is it is a bet on lost because of the cost.

For the bonus on damages, I doubt it works for magic missile. Hence +4 damages doesn't look that big, even less when compared to wize specialized in an element et getting more damages increase.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Dorok:

The problem with empower spell is it is a bet on lost because of the cost.

The cost is "free" since you get Sorcery Points as part of the class abilities. So by using Metamagic you're not strictly losing anything compared to other classes.

Originally posted by Dorok:

For the bonus on damages, I doubt it works for magic missile.

Of course not, MM is force damage, not elemental. But there are plenty of other spells that work (or should work, if not for the bug) - Firebolt, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Flaming Sphere etc.

Originally posted by Dorok:

Hence +4 damages doesn't look that big

+5, since you've obviously maxed your casting stat. And that +5 turns to +25 when you cast Scorching Ray as a 4th level spell, or when your Fireball hits 5 targets.

Originally posted by Dorok:

even less when compared to wize specialized in an element

Wizards don't specialise in elements in Solasta..

Originally posted by Dorok:

et getting more damages increase.

As I said, the Shock Arcanist might still get an edge over an unbugged Sorc in terms of burst DPR. However, the Sorc also has other abilities going for it (like Twinned spell, or higher defense for Draconic, or the diplomatic abilities, being the only class with Charisma main stat), which at least make it an interesting option. But not in its bugged state, of course.

[Snefru]

In PnP version, do sorcerers get the transmute ability/metamagic to turn their spells into any element? Just curious if it isn’t in base game or if so, I wonder why it didn’t get put in the video game?

[jsaving]

The sad part is, sorcerers are pretty unpopular in tabletop 5e because wizards now have most of what made sorcerers great in 3e. It was inevitable that a lot of people with fond memories of the 3e sorcerer were going to be disappointed by its 5e version, and having sorcerers debut in such a bugged state just reinforces that disappointment.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Dorok:

The problem with empower spell is it is a bet on lost because of the cost.

The cost is "free" since you get Sorcery Points as part of the class abilities. So by using Metamagic you're not strictly losing anything compared to other classes.

That's a reasoning I don't agree with.

First point of view, forget other classes, stick to Sorcerer point of view, use a sorc point is like use a spell point, there's a cost and only long rest can restore it. In this case you use it in case of 10% chance of failing damages roll. That's a weird bet, 10 points spend and you didn't even get a sum of 100% chance of to get an extra cast for 10 spells cast. That's a negative bargain.

Second point of view, compare with wizard, the 10 sorc point cost at level 10 is a huge weakness in amount of usable spells. There' a cost and it is very high.

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Dorok:

Hence +4 damages doesn't look that big

+5, since you've obviously maxed your casting stat. And that +5 turns to +25 when you cast Scorching Ray as a 4th level spell, or when your Fireball hits 5 targets.

Well 5 turns is long, for fireball, ok.

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Dorok:

even less when compared to wize specialized in an element

Wizards don't specialise in elements in Solasta..

Mmm that's cleric? Fire, and so on? I can't check now, but I doubt.

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Dorok:

et getting more damages increase.

As I said, the Shock Arcanist

Not this one, but perhaps I make a confusion with cleric.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by jsaving:

The sad part is, sorcerers are pretty unpopular in tabletop 5e because wizards now have most of what made sorcerers great in 3e. It was inevitable that a lot of people with fond memories of the 3e sorcerer were going to be disappointed by its 5e version, and having sorcerers debut in such a bugged state just reinforces that disappointment.

Clearly 5e sorcerer are weak wizards with a sorc points system and it's hard figure its benefits.

[rumpelstiltskin]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by rumpelstiltskin:

it's 5e wizard's payback for years of sorcerer domination

When has Sorcerer ever dominated the Wizard? In 3/3.5 the Wizard was leaps and bounds ahead in terms of power. In 5e despite Wizards being severely gimped the Sorcerer still only gains advantage through multiclassing (Sorlock), but a multiclassed Wizard is also very powerful (Storm Cleric + Loremaster Wizard = big bang).

i mean at least in CRPGs, with their reliance on combat gauntlets. sorcs can spam spells and utilize spell slots more effectively due to spontaneous casting.