Why this game is called neverwinter despite having nothing in common with nwn1/2?

[Cryomancer]

I could't play this game for more than a day. Too much wow-like stuff such as cooldowns and gear determining stats(something that makes zero sense if you ask me), i an not saying that is bad, but neverwinter was not supposed to be an D&D adaptation?

I mean, there are differences. For eg. warlock is nerfed and bugged on nwn2, i needed to install an mod to fix warlock and make it more like pnp in order to enjoy the class. Summons are limited to only one(mods can fix it too), with mods, but at least NWN1/2 has the core basic of D&D. Saves, DC, rolls, etc.

And since this game is called neverwinter, some times when i search content related to nwn1, i find content related to this game. I was searching for an ravenloft module for nwn1 on YT and found mostly video about this game, not nwn1...

[NavFamG]

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the previous games, it's not made by the same company and was never intended to be a continuation of the Neverwinter Nights series.

All 3 are based in the Neverwinter part of the Forgotten Realms. Hence the name.

You are correct thought, it not's very D&Dish, really just a standard MMO with a thin wash of D&D over it via classes and place names.

[Cryomancer]

Originally posted by NavFamG:

It doesn't have to have anything to do with the previous games, it's not made by the same company and was never intended to be a continuation of the Neverwinter Nights series.

All 3 are based in the Neverwinter part of the Forgotten Realms. Hence the name.

You are correct thought, it not's very D&Dish, really just a standard MMO with a thin wash of D&D over it via classes and place names.

Is that hard to make an mmo good as an sp rpg?

With armor that works like armor(offering protection/deflecting blows), instead of being the DNA of your character and everyone being an clone "naked", where attributes atually measures your characters "traits"?

And without boring mechanics like cooldowns? I mean, no game ever used D&D rules and failed. But when an game tried to re write the rules(SCL) failed miserably...

[SeanBotha]

It used to be very unique mmo but when it went into maintenance mode they tried to put it in a state that requires the least amount of assets as possible

[NavFamG]

Originally posted by SeanBotha:

It used to be very unique mmo but when it went into maintenance mode they tried to put it in a state that requires the least amount of assets as possible

Ahhh NO. They're still doing updates on it and had another expansion for it not all that long ago.

[Cryomancer]

Originally posted by SeanBotha:

It used to be very unique mmo but when it went into maintenance mode they tried to put it in a state that requires the least amount of assets as possible

Sorry, but i found extremely like any other mmo that i've played. Nothing like Neverwinter nights 1/2...

[RotherHans]

Yes.
They tried to ride on the coattails of D&D (heck you even get to quest with MINSC&BOO!) but ultimately generated a standard MMO.
As I understand the last great update basically ERASED all D&Dish traces, streamling the character build process.

And quite frankly, that´s why I tried it now.
If I want to play D&D I load up Beamdog´s Neverwinter and pick a server.
This here is just for fun and so far I´m having it.

Oh BTW, actual D&D has frikken cooldowns too!
It´s just hidden in the turn/round system.

[Cryomancer]

Originally posted by RotherHans:

Yes.
They tried to ride on the coattails of D&D (heck you even get to quest with MINSC&BOO!) but ultimately generated a standard MMO.
As I understand the last great update basically ERASED all D&Dish traces, streamling the character build process.

And quite frankly, that´s why I tried it now.
If I want to play D&D I load up Beamdog´s Neverwinter and pick a server.
This here is just for fun and so far I´m having it.

Oh BTW, actual D&D has frikken cooldowns too!
It´s just hidden in the turn/round system.

Neverwinter Nights is not perfectly implemented. For eg, Pale Masters give no +CL and are limited to only one summons which ruins the class. Dragon disciples can be only read, Arcane archers can only imbue fire, nwn2(that i own in gog) has tons of spell fixes and class fixes to make certain classes like warlock playable since warlock is far more limited than on pnp.

As for D&D having cooldowns, wrong. Have spells slots, similar to Dark Souls 1/2. And running out of power or running out of an special arrow is completely different than "i used this arrow, now i need to wait X seconds to use again".

[NavFamG]

Originally posted by RotherHans:

As I understand the last great update basically ERASED all D&Dish traces, streamling the character build process.

Something to do with moving from the D&D edition they started with to the next edition; so 3.5 to 5? or something like that.

Whatever it was it did make the characters all more cookie cutter. Some of the changes helped, but ultimately it's always been just a standard MMO.

[RotherHans]

Originally posted by NavFamG:

Something to do with moving from the D&D edition they started with to the next edition; so 3.5 to 5? or something like that.

Ah, I see.
Makes sense.
Though I´m not a big fan of the post 3.5 D&D it seems bearable in Neverwinter.

Again if one needs the FULL old-school D&D experinece then go for frikken DDO (D&D Online).
Quite frankly I lost my nerve for juggling all the 3.5 intricacies, so maybe I´m now a D&D5 fan boy after all.

[Cryomancer]

Originally posted by RotherHans:

Originally posted by NavFamG:

Something to do with moving from the D&D edition they started with to the next edition; so 3.5 to 5? or something like that.

Ah, I see.
Makes sense.
Though I´m not a big fan of the post 3.5 D&D it seems bearable in Neverwinter.

Again if one needs the FULL old-school D&D experinece then go for frikken DDO (D&D Online).
Quite frankly I lost my nerve for juggling all the 3.5 intricacies, so maybe I´m now a D&D5 fan boy after all. :2016popsicle:

DDO is not an "full d&d experience", has the cool stuff from D&D like spell DC, skills, attributes, etc. but have a lot of mmo stuff like cooldown an ludicrous amount of inflation, not mentioning that they implemented mana instead of spell slots.... There are no good D&D adaptation since NWN2 more than a decade ago. And even nwn2 requires some mods to make spells more pnp like and certain classes like warlocks, more pnp like, otherwise, the class is useless. The most faithful D&D adaptation is ToEE.

DDO is a decent game IMO but could be much better if was more pnp-like and less mmo-like.

[Sterling]

Originally posted by C4MP3R:

DDO is a decent game IMO but could be much better if was more pnp-like and less mmo-like.

Oh yeah, I remember this one time I installed a PnP mod for VTMB and it absolutely sucked ass to play, with combat being unbearable with your character missing and doing low damage just because you wanted to not suck at other things, always coming at this weird and unrealistic "if you want to be good at this, you will suck at that" idea that would be obnoxious for a combat-oriented game. Sure, it'd be interesting to see rogues either investing in dexterity and intelligence to disarm traps, or investing in strength and dexterity to deal some serious melee damage, but PnP makes it as if you couldn't be good at both. It's fun to play D&D occasionally, but it gets really stale to spend half an hour on a single encounter, as the strength of PnP is in its own name: you can make pretty much whatever you want in an imaginary world that takes place in your head and some paper sheets; doing and undoing things is as easy as writing with a pencil and then erasing it. Computer games (the ones that look pretty, at least) are hardly optimized for that kinda fun, and the one feature Neverwinter had for that, aka the Foundry, is gone.

[Cryomancer]

Originally posted by Sterling:

Originally posted by C4MP3R:

DDO is a decent game IMO but could be much better if was more pnp-like and less mmo-like.

Oh yeah, I remember this one time I installed a PnP mod for VTMB and it absolutely sucked ass to play, with combat being unbearable with your character missing and doing low damage just because you wanted to not suck at other things, always coming at this weird and unrealistic "if you want to be good at this, you will suck at that" idea that would be obnoxious for a combat-oriented game. Sure, it'd be interesting to see rogues either investing in dexterity and intelligence to disarm traps, or investing in strength and dexterity to deal some serious melee damage, but PnP makes it as if you couldn't be good at both. It's fun to play D&D occasionally, but it gets really stale to spend half an hour on a single encounter, as the strength of PnP is in its own name: you can make pretty much whatever you want in an imaginary world that takes place in your head and some paper sheets; doing and undoing things is as easy as writing with a pencil and then erasing it. Computer games (the ones that look pretty, at least) are hardly optimized for that kinda fun, and the one feature Neverwinter had for that, aka the Foundry, is gone.

What mod did you installed?

On D&D if you have an swortsword and the enemy have plate armor, is very unlikely that you will hit him. Armor will "bounce off" a lot of your slashes. Enemies evade, armor deflects, etc in combat from stone age combat to modern tank combat... Armor class makes sense in D&D.

About fun, i don't think that spamming the same rotation and watching to timers artificially placed by no reason is fun. I recently played ToEE with Co8 mod and loved. ToEE is the most faithful D&D adaptation. I had an sorcerer with 7 DEX who due difficulty on resting and no spell slots left, managed to miss 27 times in a row... After he rested, he managed to OHKill an group of enemies with an single cone of could.


And i playing the original neverwinter nights 1(enhanced edition)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1460849181

[Sterling]

Originally posted by C4MP3R:

What mod did you installed?

On D&D if you have an swortsword and the enemy have plate armor, is very unlikely that you will hit him. Armor will "bounce off" a lot of your slashes. Enemies evade, armor deflects, etc in combat from stone age combat to modern tank combat... Armor class makes sense in D&D.

About fun, i don't think that spamming the same rotation and watching to timers artificially placed by no reason is fun. I recently played ToEE with Co8 mod and loved. ToEE is the most faithful D&D adaptation. I had an sorcerer with 7 DEX who due difficulty on resting and no spell slots left, managed to miss 27 times in a row... After he rested, he managed to OHKill an group of enemies with an single cone of could.


And i playing the original neverwinter nights 1(enhanced edition)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1460849181

I don't even remember its name, it was years ago and the only thing that got engraved in my memory was my Ventrue missing almost every single swing that visually connected to the enemy, and making combat drag on forever, as well as being stupidly difficult, while in reality anyone can grab a tire iron and club someone else in the head. The dice rolls dictating such important parts didn't make the game entertaining, and I personally have a burning hatred for visually attacking an opponent and having a text pop up saying that I actually missed the attack. I find this game's powers quite entertaining for the most part, since you can't have everything, but you can mix things up according to the situation, and end up succeeding where you were otherwise failing. I recently created a barbarian and my DPS was having trouble in a specific instance, so I switched to tank and took a defensive approach, picking moments to fight and moments to block, which proved way more entertaining than the DPS' idea of "kill it before it kills you". A lot of people get in MMOs with the braindead ADHD-infused mentality of "kill fast = best choice", while in reality it's not always the case. If there's one thing I can say about dice rolls, is that there's no fun to be had in them dictating gamechanging performance.

[Cryomancer]

Originally posted by Sterling:

Originally posted by C4MP3R:

What mod did you installed?

On D&D if you have an swortsword and the enemy have plate armor, is very unlikely that you will hit him. Armor will "bounce off" a lot of your slashes. Enemies evade, armor deflects, etc in combat from stone age combat to modern tank combat... Armor class makes sense in D&D.

About fun, i don't think that spamming the same rotation and watching to timers artificially placed by no reason is fun. I recently played ToEE with Co8 mod and loved. ToEE is the most faithful D&D adaptation. I had an sorcerer with 7 DEX who due difficulty on resting and no spell slots left, managed to miss 27 times in a row... After he rested, he managed to OHKill an group of enemies with an single cone of could.


And i playing the original neverwinter nights 1(enhanced edition)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1460849181

I don't even remember its name, it was years ago and the only thing that got engraved in my memory was my Ventrue missing almost every single swing that visually connected to the enemy, and making combat drag on forever, as well as being stupidly difficult, while in reality anyone can grab a tire iron and club someone else in the head. The dice rolls dictating such important parts didn't make the game entertaining, and I personally have a burning hatred for visually attacking an opponent and having a text pop up saying that I actually missed the attack. I find this game's powers quite entertaining for the most part, since you can't have everything, but you can mix things up according to the situation, and end up succeeding where you were otherwise failing. I recently created a barbarian and my DPS was having trouble in a specific instance, so I switched to tank and took a defensive approach, picking moments to fight and moments to block, which proved way more entertaining than the DPS' idea of "kill it before it kills you". A lot of people get in MMOs with the braindead ADHD-infused mentality of "kill fast = best choice", while in reality it's not always the case. If there's one thing I can say about dice rolls, is that there's no fun to be had in them dictating gamechanging performance.

You choosed Ventrue and is complaining because they are sucking in combat? Did you at least tried to use your disciplines? What is the next? I choose an nosferatu and complain that they suck in social encounters?

I agree that games should have animations of arrows bouncing off on enemy plate armor, shields blocking, etc. But the idea that missing is not fun, i strongly disagree.

What is not fun for me is an combat where you never miss, but needs to impale the enemy 657646754 times in the head to kill then.

And this is not just the "melee" combat that needs to be re writen if you remove missing. Ranged attack too. For example, some spells have 400 feet + 40 feet / caster level range (3.5e) and bows can reach long distances like IRL. If there are no penalty on the chance of hitting at high distances, even an Eldricht Spear(300 feet on 3.5e) would be broken. Meteor Swarm's range in 5e is one mile ( https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Meteor_Swarm )

This not mentioning saves, spells like Wail of The Banshee, Flesh to Stone, etc can only work with the "saving" mechanic > http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm

At 1:10 he casts Wail of the Banshee >

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66NLekhDrCc

There are no way to have poison, insta death, permanent polymorth, petrification like on D&D if there are no "dices" . If flesh to stone exists in neverwinter mmo, it would be just an temproary debuff on cooldown...

[Sterling]

Originally posted by C4MP3R:

You choosed Ventrue and is complaining because they are sucking in combat? Did you at least tried to use your disciplines? What is the next? I choose an nosferatu and complain that they suck in social encounters?

I agree that games should have animations of arrows bouncing off on enemy plate armor, shields blocking, etc. But the idea that missing is not fun, i strongly disagree.

What is not fun for me is an combat where you never miss, but needs to impale the enemy 657646754 times in the head to kill then.

And this is not just the "melee" combat that needs to be re writen if you remove missing. Ranged attack too. For example, some spells have 400 feet + 40 feet / caster level range (3.5e) and bows can reach long distances like IRL. If there are no penalty on the chance of hitting at high distances, even an Eldricht Spear(300 feet on 3.5e) would be broken. Meteor Swarm's range in 5e is one mile ( https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Meteor_Swarm )

This not mentioning saves, spells like Wail of The Banshee, Flesh to Stone, etc can only work with the "saving" mechanic > http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm

At 1:10 he casts Wail of the Banshee >

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66NLekhDrCc

There are no way to have poison, insta death, permanent polymorth, petrification like on D&D if there are no "dices" . If flesh to stone exists in neverwinter mmo, it would be just an temproary debuff on cooldown...

What I'm "complaining" about is not that Ventrue sucks in combat, but that a specific mod made it so that combat with them is impossible without actually focusing on combat, with VTMB being a game heavily focused on combat at the later levels, as well as forcing the player into combat on several occasions, such as the warehouse in Chinatown and the limb clinic in Santa Monica. The problem is not sucking at combat, the problem is when reaching that point is a wet dream, instead of a disgust. Missing is not a bad thing by itself, but when you clearly hit an opponent and some dice just decide you actually didn't hit, it's plain ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. That said, the opposite of dice rolls on missing isn't damage sponges, in case that's what you were implying; still in VTMB, without the PnP mod, the Ventrue would be capable of going against the doctor in the limb clinic without being plagued by constant fake misses in a combat-oriented game. In Neverwinter, dodging attacks exists and it's a manual input (as it should be) just like blocking; there's also no fun in just building a character to be broken and hold down some buttons to delete an enemy. I'd take MMO rotations over RNG deciding whether something will be blatantly overpowered or completely useless any day. Honestly, it behaves a lot similarly to cheating to me: it's fun to do something extremely powerful the first few times, but after a while it just gets... boring; it's one of the main reasons I barely play Warframe anymore.