Siding with songbird makes no sense

[UnlivingEnd]

First of all: You’re not really betraying songbird as she had intended to use and dispose of you from the very beginning.

If you think about it logically, siding with her makes no sense. Songbird is mentally unstable due to the influence of her illness which makes her unreliable at best and completely untrustworthy at worst.

Are we supposed to be on her side because the game tries as hard as it can to endear her to us? Because it’s completely undercut by the fact that she only intended to use V as a tool to get what she wants while screwing him over. Morally she’s just as reprehensible as the rest of the characters in the dlc.
Why exactly are we supposed to help her? Because feewings? Sorry sweetheart, I’m not about to risk my life for someone I can’t trust at all just because you have a sad backstory that was your own damn fault anyway.

[Ciaran Zagami]

Originally posted by Irinka:

It always surprises me how people see her as the villain of the story. Not even Hansen is the villain. I think the game makes it pretty clear that the true villain is Myers but maybe that's just me

Meyers is a terrible person, true.
But Meyer's end goal is to establish order out of the chaos that is North America in the year 2077. Read the Nomad source books, get into the wider lore outside of Night City and you'll realise how utterly messed up everything is. Meyer's ruthlessness is a response to an utterly devastated world. You cannot build a nation out of the radioactive, bio-weapon ravaged, orbitally bombarded HELL that is the North American continent without a lot of spilled blood.
At the very least, I understand WHY Meyers is doing what she's doing. I do not agree with it and personally I killed Songbird in my first run of Phantom Liberty expressly to weaken her, the FIA and the NUSA.

Songbird *repeatedly* causes massacres just to buy time for her absurdly short sighted scheme. Even with V's help she still ends up a lab rat. Just with Mr.Blue eyes and whatever corporation he works for instead of Meyers and the FIA.
No mater what you or she do, Songbird's life is over. It was over the moment she sold out Meyers to Hansen. Everything in Phantom Liberty is just the death throes of a drowning woman dragging literally hundreds of people down with her.
Oh and she has the Blackwall Protocol in her brain, a super weapon that *really* should be destroyed ASAP.
Even with the perspective of playing a dead man walking, I can't justify Songbird's actions. There's literally an entire ending dedicated to V "taking the easy way out" because he can't bare the thought of killing all the people in Arasaka tower to save himself.
Even Johnny Silverhand offers to go on the assault with Rogue at his side just so that V doesn't have to watch his friends die if he goes with the Aldecaldos.

btw: Nobody cares about Kurt because he's just a little guy
He gets like, two speaking scenes in the whole DLC and thats it.
In a game where a non-speaking character like Jotaro Shobo has *pages* of lore dedicated to his sins, (only to appear as a voiceless generic enemy in a level 1 side quest.) Kurt needs to do a lot worse than bribe the NCPD and rob a single convoy.
We literally watch a man strangle the life out of his own father with his bare hands in the 4th main quest. Kurt is NOTHING compared to Meyers and Songbird.

[Mander]

Originally posted by Ciaran Zagami:

...Songbird *repeatedly* causes massacres just to buy time for her absurdly short sighted scheme. Even with V's help she still ends up a lab rat. Just with Mr.Blue eyes and whatever corporation he works for instead of Meyers and the FIA.
No mater what you or she do, Songbird's life is over. It was over the moment she sold out Meyers to Hansen. Everything in Phantom Liberty is just the death throes of a drowning woman dragging literally hundreds of people down with her.
Oh and she has the Blackwall Protocol in her brain, a super weapon that *really* should be destroyed ASAP.
Even with the perspective of playing a dead man walking, I can't justify Songbird's actions. There's literally an entire ending dedicated to V "taking the easy way out" because he can't bare the thought of killing all the people in Arasaka tower to save himself.
Even Johnny Silverhand offers to go on the assault with Rogue at his side just so that V doesn't have to watch his friends die if he goes with the Aldecaldos...

Repeatedly? When?
To be clear, I too find Songbird naive and with a wisdom stat in the negative, but she is not a mass murder, until she is forced to become one (with the weight of the blackwall tech forcibly implanted in her, courtesy of the N-USA government, as extenuating circumstance). Not really news noteworthy in any case, and especially if confronted with V, who among other things, had no compulsion to generate an EMP to down an AV… with who knows what consequences for Night City. Did we cause a power shortage for hospitals? Who knows, we just don’t care.
And Night City people are scums anyway… XD

[Ciaran Zagami]

Originally posted by Mander:

Repeatedly? When?
To be clear, I too find Songbird naive and with a wisdom stat in the negative, but she is not a mass murder, until she is forced to become one (with the weight of the blackwall tech forcibly implanted in her, courtesy of the N-USA government, as extenuating circumstance). Not really news noteworthy in any case, and especially if confronted with V, who among other things, had no compulsion to generate an EMP to down an AV… with who knows what consequences for Night City. Did we cause a power shortage for hospitals? Who knows, we just don’t care.
And Night City people are scums anyway… XD

During Birds with Broken Wings if you go and follow the optional meet with Songbird objective she outright confesses her plan (it was not something she did cause of a panic when V tried to use the ICEbreaker on her. She planned it from the start.) to turn the Petrochem stadium turrets on and use them to fire on the crowds of people therein just to create a firebreak from their corpses.
That includes children btw.
She also caused the massacre at NCX when the FIA arrived to arrest her. Her fault again that an entire spaceport terminal worth of people just get mowed down.

Also the power outtage literally lasted a few minutes at best. There's only one hospital in Night City and it is *miles* away from that station, has backup generators and is probably on an entirely different grid anyway.

[Mander]

Originally posted by Ciaran Zagami:

Originally posted by Mander:

Repeatedly? When?
To be clear, I too find Songbird naive and with a wisdom stat in the negative, but she is not a mass murder, until she is forced to become one (with the weight of the blackwall tech forcibly implanted in her, courtesy of the N-USA government, as extenuating circumstance). Not really news noteworthy in any case, and especially if confronted with V, who among other things, had no compulsion to generate an EMP to down an AV… with who knows what consequences for Night City. Did we cause a power shortage for hospitals? Who knows, we just don’t care.
And Night City people are scums anyway… XD

During Birds with Broken Wings if you go and follow the optional meet with Songbird objective she outright confesses her plan (it was not something she did cause of a panic when V tried to use the ICEbreaker on her. She planned it from the start.) to turn the Petrochem stadium turrets on and use them to fire on the crowds of people therein just to create a firebreak from their corpses.
That includes children btw.
She also caused the massacre at NCX when the FIA arrived to arrest her. Her fault again that an entire spaceport terminal worth of people just get mowed down.

Also the power outtage literally lasted a few minutes at best. There's only one hospital in Night City and it is *miles* away from that station, has backup generators and is probably on an entirely different grid anyway.

Yesn't on the second... I mean, it's not like Songbird has any control on how Mayers breaks international law ordering her spec ops to gib the entire airport full of holes. THAT is on Mayers and Mayers alone.
The point I was trying to make about V is that as you said, we’re not exactly spotless regarding the potential consequences of our actions. Not at the level of pots and kettles… but getting quite near on many occasions.

[Irinka]

Originally posted by Ciaran Zagami:

Originally posted by Mander:

Repeatedly? When?
To be clear, I too find Songbird naive and with a wisdom stat in the negative, but she is not a mass murder, until she is forced to become one (with the weight of the blackwall tech forcibly implanted in her, courtesy of the N-USA government, as extenuating circumstance). Not really news noteworthy in any case, and especially if confronted with V, who among other things, had no compulsion to generate an EMP to down an AV… with who knows what consequences for Night City. Did we cause a power shortage for hospitals? Who knows, we just don’t care.
And Night City people are scums anyway… XD

During Birds with Broken Wings if you go and follow the optional meet with Songbird objective she outright confesses her plan (it was not something she did cause of a panic when V tried to use the ICEbreaker on her. She planned it from the start.) to turn the Petrochem stadium turrets on and use them to fire on the crowds of people therein just to create a firebreak from their corpses.
That includes children btw.
She also caused the massacre at NCX when the FIA arrived to arrest her. Her fault again that an entire spaceport terminal worth of people just get mowed down.

Also the power outtage literally lasted a few minutes at best. There's only one hospital in Night City and it is *miles* away from that station, has backup generators and is probably on an entirely different grid anyway.

It sounds like you’re reading Songbird’s actions as if she set out with a fully developed, cold-blooded plan to harm civilians—but that’s really missing the layers of her situation and character. Songbird isn’t just some villain plotting a massacre; she’s a complex figure caught in a brutal, no-win scenario, desperately trying to escape while her physical and mental states are deteriorating under immense pressure.

For instance, when it comes to the turrets at Petrochem Stadium, saying she planned from the start to turn them on civilians simplifies things way too much. She wasn’t scheming to create a “firebreak” of corpses; she was trying to buy herself a way out. Her decisions are driven by fear and panic, and the last thing she wants is to hurt innocent people. At this point, she’s in survival mode, not in some calculated move to kill. She also mentions how Hansen has cleaned the whole stadium for our visit and most of the people there are BARGHEST, but sure there are some civilians still. If you are gonna judge her for that you should judge V as well. How many fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters.... has V killed in his/her quest fot survival? Or you are going to tell me everyone at Arasaka is a monster? It's totally unfair to judge her for something even we as the player do several times.

Blaming her directly for the NCX massacre misses another crucial piece. That massacre was driven by the FIA’s aggressive, brutal approach, not by her actions alone. Yes, Songbird’s attempt to flee put things in motion, but she’s not pulling the trigger on innocent bystanders. The FIA is a force known for their ruthlessness and their “take no prisoners” approach. To pin that whole tragedy on her ignores the brutality of the system she’s trapped in. In the end it's Myers the one that violates international air space laws and starts the massacre.

Songbird’s story is not one of a clear-cut villain plotting harm. She’s a tragic figure, forced into impossible choices by an authoritarian regime hunting her down. Her actions are messy, morally complex, and shaped by a brutal world that gives her little choice. The way you’re describing her oversimplifies that entirely.

[Irinka]

Originally posted by Ciaran Zagami:

Originally posted by Irinka:

It always surprises me how people see her as the villain of the story. Not even Hansen is the villain. I think the game makes it pretty clear that the true villain is Myers but maybe that's just me

Meyers is a terrible person, true.
But Meyer's end goal is to establish order out of the chaos that is North America in the year 2077. Read the Nomad source books, get into the wider lore outside of Night City and you'll realise how utterly messed up everything is. Meyer's ruthlessness is a response to an utterly devastated world. You cannot build a nation out of the radioactive, bio-weapon ravaged, orbitally bombarded HELL that is the North American continent without a lot of spilled blood.
At the very least, I understand WHY Meyers is doing what she's doing. I do not agree with it and personally I killed Songbird in my first run of Phantom Liberty expressly to weaken her, the FIA and the NUSA.

Songbird *repeatedly* causes massacres just to buy time for her absurdly short sighted scheme. Even with V's help she still ends up a lab rat. Just with Mr.Blue eyes and whatever corporation he works for instead of Meyers and the FIA.
No mater what you or she do, Songbird's life is over. It was over the moment she sold out Meyers to Hansen. Everything in Phantom Liberty is just the death throes of a drowning woman dragging literally hundreds of people down with her.
Oh and she has the Blackwall Protocol in her brain, a super weapon that *really* should be destroyed ASAP.
Even with the perspective of playing a dead man walking, I can't justify Songbird's actions. There's literally an entire ending dedicated to V "taking the easy way out" because he can't bare the thought of killing all the people in Arasaka tower to save himself.
Even Johnny Silverhand offers to go on the assault with Rogue at his side just so that V doesn't have to watch his friends die if he goes with the Aldecaldos.

btw: Nobody cares about Kurt because he's just a little guy
He gets like, two speaking scenes in the whole DLC and thats it.
In a game where a non-speaking character like Jotaro Shobo has *pages* of lore dedicated to his sins, (only to appear as a voiceless generic enemy in a level 1 side quest.) Kurt needs to do a lot worse than bribe the NCPD and rob a single convoy.
We literally watch a man strangle the life out of his own father with his bare hands in the 4th main quest. Kurt is NOTHING compared to Meyers and Songbird.

It’s easy to look at Myers’ brutal tactics and justify them as “necessary” for rebuilding America, but that perspective glosses over some major issues. Yes, North America in 2077 is a wasteland—but let’s not pretend that Myers’ end goal is some altruistic rebuilding of society for the good of all. Her “order” isn’t about empowering people or building back a community; it’s about control, dominance, and crushing anything that doesn’t fit her vision of the NUSA. The Nomad sourcebooks and wider lore make it clear: the world is messed up, but it’s also full of resilient communities trying to live free. Myers’ vision doesn’t leave room for that. Her response isn’t just “ruthless” to deal with chaos; it’s authoritarian and willing to sacrifice anyone who doesn’t conform.

Now, about Songbird—dismissing her as someone who “repeatedly causes massacres” without considering the situation ignores her desperation and her limited choices. She’s on the run from a state with the power to crush her without a second thought, while she’s suffering from physical and mental decline due to Blackwall tech that Myers is determined to exploit. Unlike V, she’s never in a position to “take the high road”; she’s in survival mode, grasping at any chance to escape the claws of an authoritarian regime that wants to use her as a tool. Songbird isn’t launching “short-sighted schemes” for kicks; she’s trying to escape a death sentence.

The claim that “Songbird’s life was over the moment she sold out Myers” reads like her life never had any other path but to serve Myers—a view that’s ironically close to the NUSA's own propaganda. She’s been exploited and used by Myers, just like many others in the game who resist becoming pawns. Sure, her desperation leads to collateral damage, but that’s a direct outcome of a system that leaves her with zero options. Characters like V, Johnny, and Rogue may have their reasons for making certain sacrifices, but comparing them to Songbird doesn’t hold up because they aren’t in the same nightmarish position she is, trapped between brutal powers with no escape.

In the end, neither Myers nor Songbird is a simple case of “good” or “evil”(even though for me Myers is pure evil but it's subjective to each player)—but putting Myers on a pedestal as someone trying to build a better society while condemning Songbird as reckless or selfish misses the wider tragedy of the world they’re both in. Songbird isn’t a villain dragging people down with her; she’s a trapped person resisting becoming yet another pawn, knowing she has no way out. And that’s what makes her, ultimately, one of the most human characters in the story.

[Dugaul]

if you think about she did get the other people on the plane killed no?

[Mander]

Originally posted by Dugaul:

if you think about she did get the other people on the plane killed no?

And that makes... 11 lives So Mi has on her conscience and weight her mind down.
But it’s only 11.
How many people have we killed as V? Because if we begin the DLC after finishing enough of the main story, I’m ready to bet we’ve reached 4 digits. XD

[Dugaul]

Originally posted by Mander:

Originally posted by Dugaul:

if you think about she did get the other people on the plane killed no?

And that makes... 11 lives So Mi has on her conscience and weight her mind down.
But it’s only 11.
How many people have we killed as V? Because if we begin the DLC after finishing enough of the main story, I’m ready to bet we’ve reached 4 digits. XD

Sure but she is killing her own? / also V doesnt have to kill can get away with knocking most people out instead.

[Mander]

Originally posted by Dugaul:

Originally posted by Mander:

And that makes... 11 lives So Mi has on her conscience and weight her mind down.
But it’s only 11.
How many people have we killed as V? Because if we begin the DLC after finishing enough of the main story, I’m ready to bet we’ve reached 4 digits. XD

Sure but she is killing her own? / also V doesnt have to kill can get away with knocking most people out instead.

Sure. V can also roadkill an embarassing number of people and never taste the iron of a jail...


The point I'm trying to make is: judging So Mi as irredeemable because of the 11 she killed on board the Space Force One is silly.
BOTH because it wasn’t really malicious on her part: she let her naivety guide her in believing Hansen wouldn’t have used ground to air homing missiles. Surprise surprise, the biggest weapon dealer in Night City did in fact, use them (Silly So Mi, with her wisdom stat in the negative).
AND ALSO because We as V, don’t have any moral pedestal to do it without being an hypocrite. Because, in the vast majority of cases, we have already left behind us a number of bodies in the triple digit at the absolute minimum. Sure, we can try and play as a non-lethal V who could not harm a wittle wabbit… but why should we? Cyberpunk is not the place for self-righteous paladins, as just the prologue shows (the 6 months spent with Jackie, ending in alley shootouts one evening after the other).